Picture Code

[Quicksand]

Unless I missed it, I don't see that there's any nondestructive clone/heal functionality, copyable from frame to frame, which is something I find indispensable in ASP/B5 and now Lightroom. That keeps me away from RawTherapee too. Fortunately I don't have to deal with dust spots too often, but when I do, they can occur on many consecutive shots in exactly the same locations.

I don't want to burden my already-slow workflow with extra intermediate temporary files and external editors operating on 8-bit images.

What other raw processors offer this? Bonus points for Linux compatibility, though I currently use Lightroom in a Windows 7 virtual machine.

[KeithR]

I wouldn't call the highlight recovery buggy though - all it can do is guess the right color when one channel is blown. And it does that very very well.)

True - but Lightroom never, ever creates false colours in recovered highlights for me. Not once. So clearly it's something that can be done better than PN does it right now - although I've no doubt that the PN devs will improve it, and quickly, and responsively to its customers' needs.

In fact it's already a lot better as of release 1.0.3. than it was at 1.0.0.

Look at this:

Off the camera;
After conversion/HR recovery in Photo Ninja.

ASP's highlight tools (including plugins) just make this image's whites a dirty grey, but they do absolutely nothing whatsoever to recover the highlight details.

Oh - and if (God forbid) Picturecode does employ some of the dumped Bibble/ASP devs, I hope to hell that the first thing that happens is that Picturecode's idea of customer service is thoroughly beaten into them.

[MikeFromMesa]

> In fact it's already a lot better as of release 1.0.3. than it was at 1.0.0.

It is, I think, very nice software, especially for a product so young. While it does not do everything perfectly and while it does lack some pretty essential functionality, I bought a license expecting that they will fix their minor problems and fill in their missing gaps pretty quickly. What I would like to see is:

1) batch functionality (they say this is coming),
2) at least some limited masking ability,
3) plugin availability for PhotoNinja,
4) automatic lens distortion correction like LR and Dxo,
5) a color picker for its color correction.

Even with its restricted functionality I think it is very good software and I particularly like its highlight protection and image correction functionality. I think it does some things better than LR and it has become my main processing software.

[ferdinand-paris]

It is, I think, very nice software, especially for a product so young. While it does not do everything perfectly and while it does lack some pretty essential functionality, I bought a license expecting that they will fix their minor problems and fill in their missing gaps pretty quickly.

ditto

4) automatic lens distortion correction like LR and Dxo,

It can do this, but it is lacking the profiles. I did some profiles for a few lenses and it works. Well, you have to turn correction on in the main screen using the checkbox, but that's fairly simple. What they need is a user forum and a place to exchange lens profiles.

it has become my main processing software.

It is slow for bulk work. But I do like its colours, detail and NR. I am happy enough with ASP for a lot of my bulk B&W work at the moment, but I can see me using it more for colour and for fine art work.

F_P

[pefunk]

>. What I would like to see is:
...
5) a color picker for its color correction.

It actually has a color picker. The cursor turns into the color picker by default when you swich to the color correction screen and turns back into the cursor when you click on "apply" or "cancel". While you are in the color correction screen you have to ress the space bar to be able to pan or zoom. Not really intuitive, but the color picker is there allright.

Peter

[MikeFromMesa]

4) automatic lens distortion correction like LR and Dxo,

It can do this, but it is lacking the profiles. I did some profiles for a few lenses and it works. Well, you have to turn correction on in the main screen using the checkbox, but that's fairly simple. What they need is a user forum and a place to exchange lens profiles.
F_P

Could you point me to some instructions on how to create the lens profiles? I really like the software but I have to manually correct my UWA images. I have a Windows machine if that makes any difference. I could create a Unix system if I had to, but I don't currently have one built for use.

[MikeFromMesa]

3) plugin availability for PhotoNinja

Jeez, I sincerely hope not, Mike!

It was Bibble's (and subsequently ASP's) use of a plugin model that resulted in the core product being so weak, as users stepped into the breach to provide fixes to functionality shortfalls and inadequacies (fixes that should've been made to the core product by the devs) in the form of user-written plugins - a fact that became patently obvious when the main "improvement" delivered when Bibble 4 was rolled out was improvements to the plugin SDK, which the sacked devs banged on about interminably, while completely ignoring every single one of the bugs in my signature. In their view, easier plugins obviously meant less pressure on them to do their job and actually fix bugs.
.

I understand your concerns but there are some items I would like to see that I don't ever expect to see from the developers. I would like to see the ability to add text to an image, I would like to see some masking ability and clone/heal functionality. There are some others, but I don't expect PictureCode to address any of these any time quickly. That is why I wold like to see plugins.

Bells and whistles over quality, time after time.
Frankly, the plugin model is a cheat and a scam - it can never be right (outside perhaps, of Open Source) that users - paying customers - should need to be the solution to poor or inadequate coding a la Bibble/ASP.

I guess I think that is a little harsh.

Some very fine products allow plugins - PhotoShop CS5/6, Lightroom, PaintShopPro and ASP just to name a few. And I have a license for Sagelight which I use to take care of problem photos from time to time and some of its plugins are just wonderful. For example Sagelight includes a plugin named WireWorm which intended to be used to remove wires from the image. It does such a good job that I sent a contribution to the developer and it has become one of my main processing tools. For some image problems it is better than the normal heal/clone functionality and I use it for general image repair when necessary.

I also use PerfectMask 5 as a Photoshop plugin. It is a reasonably good masking program and I find it faster and better than CS5 masking. That may be because I don't know how to properly use masking in CS5, but it certainly saves me some time.

I do understand your point - allow plguins and the developers don't have to do the work and they may begin to rely on external plugins to replace normal development work. I can see how that can happen. But it clearly doesn't have to. LR and CS5 have not suffered from plugins and I would hope that ASP does not.

[ferdinand-paris]

4) automatic lens distortion correction like LR and Dxo,

It can do this, but it is lacking the profiles. I did some profiles for a few lenses and it works. Well, you have to turn correction on in the main screen using the checkbox, but that's fairly simple. What they need is a user forum and a place to exchange lens profiles.
F_P

Could you point me to some instructions on how to create the lens profiles? I really like the software but I have to manually correct my UWA images. I have a Windows machine if that makes any difference. I could create a Unix system if I had to, but I don't currently have one built for use.

In Photo Ninja it's quite different to in ASP. In ASP you have to use external software to calculate these (a,b,c) parameters and then input them to the lens DB. There is a how-to somewhere on these forums.

PN has it's own tool built in. In the main screen for an image, click "Distortion and Geometry", and then check the "Show Tool" checkbox. This shows a yellow line with seven points. You need to take a image with guaranteed straight lines at the right places, which appear as curved in the image, and put the yellow markers along them. You start with one line, which may be enough, and add more if needed using the "+" button. To apply the correction hit auto-align, and to save the setting for auto use, hit the "Train..." button.

The trick is to take the right sort of calibration image. I found the ASP how-to guide - http://forum.corel.com/EN/viewtopic.php?f=95&t=45815 - and although the procedure is different in PN, the sort of image you want to use is the much the same. And the comments about multiple images for zooms also apply in PN. And don't use brick walls, tiles are better.

Some basic PN instructions are here: http://www.picturecode.com/tutorials/di ... n_tool.php

One trick you have to watch out for in PN is that you can't reuse a lens profile that you calculate for a RAW image like NEF for an out-of-camera JPG, whereas you can in ASP. This is slightly tedious, as you have to calculate separate RAW and JPG profiles, but I shoot RAW 99.99% of the time anyway so I just did RAW.

F_P

[MikeFromMesa]

PN has it's own tool built in. In the main screen for an image, click "Distortion and Geometry", and then check the "Show Tool" checkbox. This shows a yellow line with seven points. You need to take a image with guaranteed straight lines at the right places, which appear as curved in the image, and put the yellow markers along them. You start with one line, which may be enough, and add more if needed using the "+" button. To apply the correction hit auto-align, and to save the setting for auto use, hit the "Train..." button.

The trick is to take the right sort of calibration image. I found the ASP how-to guide - http://forum.corel.com/EN/viewtopic.php?f=95&t=45815 - and although the procedure is different in PN, the sort of image you want to use is the much the same. And the comments about multiple images for zooms also apply in PN. And don't use brick walls, tiles are better.

Some basic PN instructions are here: http://www.picturecode.com/tutorials/di ... n_tool.php

One trick you have to watch out for in PN is that you can't reuse a lens profile that you calculate for a RAW image like NEF for an out-of-camera JPG, whereas you can in ASP. This is slightly tedious, as you have to calculate separate RAW and JPG profiles, but I shoot RAW 99.99% of the time anyway so I just did RAW.

F_P

I guess I have been negligent since I did not see this post until this morning - 5 days after it was put on the forum.

The first thing I shoud say is that I am puzzled by your response. I know about the line straightening in PN and it was one of the things that made me decide to purchase a license, but I never thought of it as a way to build a lens distortion template. Are you saying that if I take a sequence of images at different focal lens with something like my 17-35 and include something straight in the images and then "train" with each of those images with the straight line(s) fixed it will create a lens distortion template for use later? That I did not know. I have done training, especially with the NoiseNinja 3.0 settings which I find to be set way too high for my taste, but I never thought straightening lines would create lens distortion information.

If that is correct exactly how many images (that is, at how many focal lengths) are necessary?

[MikeFromMesa]

>. What I would like to see is:
...
5) a color picker for its color correction.

It actually has a color picker. The cursor turns into the color picker by default when you swich to the color correction screen and turns back into the cursor when you click on "apply" or "cancel". While you are in the color correction screen you have to ress the space bar to be able to pan or zoom. Not really intuitive, but the color picker is there allright.

Peter

The color picker you are referring to is in the Correction Correction adjustment section. I was referring to the Color Enhancement section. What I would like to be able to do is select the specific color I would like to adjust - increase or decrease the luminance for that color, increase or decrease the saturation for that color. There is no color picker for Color Enhancement.

I have found that the PN Color Enhancement section is very flexible but it only provides 7 colors to pick from. That means that I sometimes have a difficult time adjusting it so that I can lower the luminance of some of the desert where I live. Given the strong sun in the American Southwest and the ability of the desert to reflect light I would sometimes like to be able to reduce the ground glare. Finding the right color using the 7 colors, the right Reference Hue and the right Hue affinity can sometimes be difficult. A color picker would allow me to easily get the right color. More default colors would also be nice. LR has 8.

I would also like to see a dedicated PhotoNinja or PictureCode forum since it seems strange to be discussing PhotoNinja on a Corel forum.

[ormdig]

I have found the new version of Photo Ninja giving unwanted color cast to it's automatic highlight recovery when activating a new image. I had some tree branches separating a small section of sky from the general picture and it gave color cast to that section reminiscent of ASP's highlight recovery. I can't figure out how to disable this automatic recovery so I can do my own highlight recovery. These were not blown areas just much brighter than the rest of the somewhat underexposed image. In the older version this was the main attraction of this program for me.

[MikeFromMesa]

I have found the new version of Photo Ninja giving unwanted color cast to it's automatic highlight recovery when activating a new image. I had some tree branches separating a small section of sky from the general picture and it gave color cast to that section reminiscent of ASP's highlight recovery. I can't figure out how to disable this automatic recovery so I can do my own highlight recovery. These were not blown areas just much brighter than the rest of the somewhat underexposed image. In the older version this was the main attraction of this program for me.

Have you contacted them about this? They are very responsive.

Also, if the area was just a little too bright have you tried the vignetting adjustments? You might be able to darken the corners enough to compensate. I know that you want it done right and don't want to "fix" a bug but it might help in the short term. Unless, of course, you end up making all the corners too dark by compensation.

[KeithR]

I have found the new version of Photo Ninja giving unwanted color cast to it's automatic highlight recovery when activating a new image.

Have you wound down the "Strength" slider of "Color Recovery" in the "Color Correction" tab? That should fix it.

I was getting false colour highlights sometimes (along with tons of detail mind, unlike ASP) so I've adjusted the default slider setting to 70, and I've barely had an instance of it since doing so: and the rare time it's happened since, taking the slider down a bit further fixes it.

[MikeFromMesa]

An opinion you're entitled to, Mike - but I sincerely believe it to be exactly the truth of the matter: can you imagine how Godawful Bibble/ASP would be if the core product was exactly "as is" and there were no plugins to make up for its many, many failings?

Of course you are entitled to your opinion but there are lots of very good plugins available out there.

Based on what you wrote I am assuming that it is not the plugins themselves that you take issue with as much as the chance that the hosting application will accept plugins as a replacement for keeping their product up to date and working properly. I can understand that philosophy although I still think some plugins are very valuable and their existance does not have to create a problem. It depends upon the responsibility of the engineers and managers for the hosting application. Mostly the managers as most engineers I have met want their software to work properly and usefully.

[ferdinand-paris]

I know about the line straightening in PN and it was one of the things that made me decide to purchase a license, but I never thought of it as a way to build a lens distortion template. Are you saying that if I take a sequence of images at different focal lens with something like my 17-35 and include something straight in the images and then "train" with each of those images with the straight line(s) fixed it will create a lens distortion template for use later? That I did not know. I have done training, especially with the NoiseNinja 3.0 settings which I find to be set way too high for my taste, but I never thought straightening lines would create lens distortion information.

If that is correct exactly how many images (that is, at how many focal lengths) are necessary?

The type and number of images are exactly the same as for the B5/ASP procedure. If you've calibrated lenses in ASP then the procedure is the same, but the tool is different. Did you read that link? So for a 18-55 I took shots at 18, 21 24, 28, 35, 45, 55. In ASP you have to use some external s/w to calculate the (a,b,c) parameters for each focal length and insert the results in the lens DB (a text file). ASP interpolates for intermediate focal lengths. PN is similar. You use the line straightening tool on each of these images and then "train" and PN will also interpolate for intermediate focal lengths. That's my understanding and experience. What's the problem? The only hard part is to select the right kind of wall / building to use as your target. Do not use brick walls.

F_P