What are you switching to?

[lundbech]

Hi

about switching for linux, it seems that the mask are appearing in Darktable:

http://www.darktable.org/2013/04/masks/

That's a good point

Yes, but the Darktable UI is still an unholy mess!

[sauron]

The UI has its issues, but the Darktable developers are responsive and engaged. I'm sure if you demonstrated a better UI model, and mocked something up, there would be interest. That's infinitely more than you'll get from ASP, which is moribund. The only noise you hear from Corel is the tumbleweeds blowing across the landscape....

There are many areas where ASP did a good job, but right now, Darktable has a future, and there's no sign of one for ASP. I've been putting my time into extracting metadata from Bibble XMP files and migrating it across. I miss the catalog - Darktable's "collections" UI s not as good, but it'll improve. ASP is just going to slowly bitrot.

[lundbech]

The UI has its issues, but the Darktable developers are responsive and engaged. I'm sure if you demonstrated a better UI model, and mocked something up, there would be interest. That's infinitely more than you'll get from ASP, which is moribund. The only noise you hear from Corel is the tumbleweeds blowing across the landscape....

There are many areas where ASP did a good job, but right now, Darktable has a future, and there's no sign of one for ASP. I've been putting my time into extracting metadata from Bibble XMP files and migrating it across. I miss the catalog - Darktable's "collections" UI s not as good, but it'll improve. ASP is just going to slowly bitrot.

Demonstrate a better UI model?

- Darktable's collections just dont work. compared to ASP.
- It's impossible to import/export styles/presets. I downloaded 20 b/w styles and have to import them one at the time, each time navigating to the directory they are in to find them. You cannot backup styles other than exporting them one at the time. You cant even cheat and find them om disk somewhere, as they are stored in the same very large file as the image database.
- Their plugins/modules (which is all program functionality) are very difficult to work with, even though they have made changes for the better.
- The idea of one module to activate/deactivate other modules on the fly just shows that there are to many (which is a concern om the mailinglist). Instead of trying to limit them and making the program easier to use, still more functionality is added.
- COMPARE with ASP where all I need for many photos is the "Basic Adjustments" module, in Darktable I have to find similar function spread out over several modules in several tabs.
- Four different denoise modules? Activate all of them and they show up in the correction group. But not above each other: I then have

• Denoise (non-local)
  Denoise (bilateral)
  Lens Correction
  Spot Removal
  Denoise (profiled)
  Raw denoise

- The UI is horrible. Compare with ASP. To little contrast and everything just blends into each other. The idea mapping UI contrast/brightness to F7-F10 is just ridiculous and it's difficult enough to find a decent setting, which will last until you accidentally hit one of those keys by accident.

I wish I could say that there was no UI design philosophy behind Darktable but unfortunately there is and it's totally hopeless. It's almost worse than RawTherapee!

[madsec]

There someone seems to be realy upset about something

[madsec]

I've been putting my time into extracting metadata from Bibble XMP files and migrating it across. I miss the catalog - Darktable's "collections" UI s not as good, but it'll improve. ASP is just going to slowly bitrot.

Have you managed to import your ASP settings, especially keywords, to Darktable somehow? There is no direct way as far as I know, but it should be possible via bash script. Just want to know if I have to write one of my own or if there is already a solution...

[lundbech]

There someone seems to be realy upset about something

Where? Why? How? Are you?

[madsec]

[Trucks]

...
- COMPARE with ASP where all I need for many photos is the "Basic Adjustments" module, in Darktable I have to find similar function spread out over several modules in several tabs.
...

I wish I could say that there was no UI design philosophy behind Darktable but unfortunately there is and it's totally hopeless. It's almost worse than RawTherapee!

These are my favorite no go`s in darktable.

Trucks

[madsec]

The first problem could be solved by the relatively new Favorite tab...

[Trucks]

stable or testing?

[madsec]

stable or testing?

In the newest stable version 1.2 you can put modules in a favorite tab. I think that function is already in there for quite a while though.

[Trucks]

It`s a good a idea to put modules together in tabs as you like it. But an Basic tab saves place and you can place the modules you need below.

Trucks

[lundbech]

The first problem could be solved by the relatively new Favorite tab...

It has been there for some time, but it doesn't solve the problem. It's one out of six (seven the last ) tabs you can add modules to by youself. You still can't control the order in which they are there. There are 50 (!) modules arranged in five tabs, not alphabetically, but by some program-internal logic.

Just checked out the soon to be released free version of Lightzone and in less than an hour you have a pretty good idea how it works. With Darktable even after several days you're still wondering what kind of alien logic is behind it all. It's sad really because there are some pretty nice features in there.

I guess a post by someone on their mailinglist (04/19/2013)sums it up:

Interesting discussion about "Perfectly Clear" and automated tools. I use AftershotPro (and BibblePro before it) and think it's a great tool.

Automation is nice but I find automation over-processes. I prefer Darktable because it hasn't got automation. I like making my own decisions.

My Darktable images, though, are grey and hazy. It's as if there's a grey film over the image and, so far, no amount of Darktable tweaking has made a difference. This 'lack of snap' varies according to the image, of course, but it's very frustrating and keeps me locked into AftershotPro when I really don't was to be.

Still the same guy doesn't get the results he wants:

I can process the image I'm struggling with in AfterShotPro WITHOUT AUTOMATION and get a crisp, bright, contrasty, colorful image that is Worlds different than the best I've been able to get from Darktable. Or, I can take a png of the Darktable image and tweak it to satisfaction in The Gimp. No amount of tweaking in Darktable, including almost all of the tools suggested (except the presets, which I hadn't tried) has made a done the trick.

Darktable is not even close. Even Photivo has a better UI.

[madsec]

The order of modules in Darktable is the same in which they are applied to the image, with the module at the botton of the list first and the top one last applied. But would be great to have the possibility to order them in a cistom way.

[sauron]

Demonstrate a better UI model?

<stuff snipped>

I wish I could say that there was no UI design philosophy behind Darktable but unfortunately there is and it's totally hopeless. It's almost worse than RawTherapee!

So put some effort into working out how you think these things should change in an actionable way, why you think your way is better, and file a wishlist bug, then be prepared to defend your view.

The thing about a project like Darktable is that the developers care, and are listening, and can and will make changes. Just don't expect them to listen to you if all you're saying is "it's hopeless". There are many UI areas of Darktable that I don't like - however I've had some interesting discussions about them. I'm also aware that I can help contribute to the discussion about them, but that doing so will take a certain investment of my time.

To address a specific complaint, the F7-F10 mapping annoys me too, but it's user configurable. Go go general preferences, and you can change pretty much all the keybindings, and make it map much more towards ASP like muscle memory.

I would probably not be investing as much time into Darktable if ASP was still alive and kicking, but although my current camera is supported in ASP, it seems pretty clear that there is no future for the product, and I have had enough of waiting for updates and communication that never comes, bugfixes that don't happen, and all the other crap we've put up with from Bibble Labs and Corel. The last time I can honestly remember it being *good* was when Eric Hyman was still at Bibble.