x5 sound interrupts after a transition

[BenK]

Thanks to all for the attention to my post

Regarding DirectX: to make sure, I reinstalled it from Microsoft's site, and i got the same version as before (9.0c, 409.0000.0904)

Id' glad to upload my tests clips, but, as have no experience with that, i need some help. What is a smart package, how and where to upload that ? Below, i see the option " Upload attachment" - can I use that?
the total volume, including a HuffYuv element, is about 400MB. If I compress the element first, about 250 MB

By the way, I repeated the test with PowerDirector 11 (my alternative editor), and there was no problem with transitions or else. Unfortunately, compared to Corel, PD is quite crashy with Mpg2 HD projects (less so with AVCD projects) and is quite slow when working with sizable projects.

[lata]

Hi

Thanks for trying Direct X, it would have been good if it had improved things.

OK—Smart Package upload.
First create a short project using your files add the transitions and any other edits that is causing the problem. You could render the project to a new video file to view the problem. If you insert that file to the overlay track it will be included in the Smart Package.

Create a Smart Package…..
With the project open in the timeline go to File – Smart Package, follow the on screen instructions, choose the zipped option, this will create a package containing all files used in the project along with a VSP (Project File).
I expect the package will be quite large so the forum attachment options wont do.

You have to upload to a Sharing site, 4 Shared or MediaFire are free, you may have to register for 4Shared as would anyone wishing to download.
4Shared file limit is 2Gb I think, not sure about Media Fire but will be similar.
Again you should keep your project small to reduce the size as much as possible.

Let us know how you get on……….

[BenK]

Hi Trevor, thanks for the instructions,
I'll have a look at this.

But first, I'd like to show a picture with the tracks, to give an idea about what I am talking about. I try to do this as an attachment to this message. Regarding the picture:

The first track contains the source clips without transitions. The second clip of that line is an avi file (Huffyuf). The last 4 frames of that avi file do not show sound.
The 2nd to 5th tracks show rendered files with 1 second transitions. In difference to my previous tests mentioned on this board, I have removed the transition between clip 6 and 7, because it had only 23 frames. Corel did not accept a 1 sec transition due to the small size of the clip.

The 2nd tracks shows the rendered result of the source clips.

For the third track, I have replaced the avi file with its compressed mpg equivalent (performed with Corel). No big difference to the second track. The first 2 frames of the mpg equivalent of the avi file do not show sound. I think that this is a display bug. In PD, the 2 first frames of that same mpg file show sound.

The 4th track shows the results obtained with PD (same source clips, identical settings). In PD you can also use parabolic sound cross fade. You would then see less sound amplitude reduction in transitions.

For the 5th track, Corel again, I had cut off the 4 last frames of the avi clip (frames that did not show sound). Surprisingly, the sound transitions of the subsequent clips look better. I've observed that repeatedly: You modify the length of one clip or of one transition and the sound profiles of the following transitions look different – sometimes better, sometimes worse.

Worth mentioning: my videos are 50i.

In my next post, I'll show the results for 12 frames transitions.

[BenK]

The attached picture shows the results for a clip sequence with transition length of 12 frames. For the explanation of the tracks, see my post regarding the 1 second transitions. As you can see, with Corel, the results become unacceptable. Even the cut off of the 4 last frames of the avi clip doesn't help this time. PD, by contrast, has no problems with such transition length

[BenK]

More tests

To verify my observations regarding the behaviour of sound transitions, I recorded sequences of 6 and 7 clips with two Sony HD cams, one recording in mpg2 (sound: mpeg audio, 384kbps), the other in AVCD (sound: Dolby, 256 kbps). The recorded sound was the high volume sound of a vacuum cleaner. The clips, after adding transitions were smart rendered to mpg2 or AVCD files. I think that everybody interested in verifying my observations can easily repeat that test. The recordings were made in 50i.

Results for VideoStudio X6, if not otherwise stated

Transitions below on second:

I tested transition lengths of 11 to 14 frames.
The results were bad in all tests for AVCD and for mpeg2 files. 60% to 75% of the transitions had sound volumes linearly declining to near 0 and then abruptly starting again at full volume, giving the impression of disrupted sound. The results were similar to my previous findings.

Transitions of one second (=25 frames in i50):

The rendered file of the mpg2 clips with 1 second transitions showed a strong decrease in volume during transitions. In 3 of the 5 transitions, the sound of the second clips started with a slight step up, but less abrupt as in some of my previous tests. In the resulting file, the constant sound of the source clips mutates to a sound with pumping volumes, reminding a yelping dog.
In AVCD, the 1 second transitions also showed lower sound volumes (not as low as the mpg2 file) and smooth sound curves. I'd say that is the "VideoStudio no bug case".
Contrary to my previous test with other mpg2 source material, extending the length of the 1 second transition by one frame did not improve the situation – it stayed nearly the same with mpg2 material but – oddly enough – the AVCD file now had 3 transitions with disrupted sound.

Transitions of 1.5 second (37 frames in i50):

Besides the usual volume decline, similar to that observed with the AVCD 1 sec transition file, there is nothing negative to mention. Sound transitions were smooth.

General observation

I repeated all the tests with PowerDirector 11. No bugs in sound transitions here. During transitions, sound volume also decreased, but somewhat less compared to the good transitions in VideoStudio.

That volume decrease is not a bug, but the result of the transition type (linear cross fading). Between two clips with similar high sound volumes, that can become annoying. Otherwise, it's probably not noticeable. Even the described bugs in VideoStudio may get unnoticed when sound levels are moderate or when the second clip has a low sound level.

You can get better (I would say more professional) results in PD, if you select the parabolic – "constant power" – sound cross fade option. In VideoStudio, it's possible to make the sound cross fades non linear too, but that requires some time consuming fumbling.

To be clear: this is not a recommendation to switch to PD, which has other annoying issues in my experience.

Conclusions regarding mpg2-HD or AVCD-HD, possibly limited to 50i or the used sound formats

Transitions below one second do most of the time not smoothen sound, but make things worse.

Transitions of 1 sec: For mpg2 material, many sound transitions are buggy and annoying, confirming previous tests.
For AVCD material, the results are somewhat controversial and require more testing.

Transitions of 1.5 sec or more: The bugs do not (or rarely) show up anymore.

[BenK]

To expose the problem more clearly graphically, I' have complemented my previous graphs with the graph below. The clips in the source timeline are the same as in the previous graphs.

To remind: except the 2nd clip, the source clips are Mpg2 HD i50. The second clip is Avi-Huffyuv HD i50. All the clips have I high sound volume starting at the first frame. The clips have been smart rendered. The clips were only in track 1 (the basic timeline). Removing the Avi clip did not improve the results.

To better show the sound ramp up of the right clip in a transition, I've eliminated the sound fade down of the left clip (see track one of the graph). In track 2 you see the resulting rendered file.

If the sound ramp up of the right clip works correctly, you should see in a transition phase in the sound graph of the rendered file a kind of triangle. At the beginning of the transition, the volume is 0. The volume should then increase linearly to reach full volume at the end of the transitions.

Regarding the rendered file (track 2): In only 3 cases (transitions 4, 6 and 7), the sound ramp up works correctly. In 2 cases, it partially works (transitions 1 and 2). In 3 cases, there is practically no sound ramp up during transition (transitions 3, 5 and 8 ).

[lata]

Hi

As mentioned I do not have the same type of video files so cannot replicate your audio problem.

I can see from the image that the two fades that should create the cross fade is not complete, however it does seem to contain a very short fade, there is a short vertical line at the end of each clip, just at the start of the fades and that looks odd.

I have tried in vane to replicate the problem using the HD files I have available.

Can you create a Smart Package of the project, use small video clips and set the project as the last image top timeline, then render the project and add the new file to the overlay track. Now create the Smart Zipped Package.

Upload to maybe 4Shared or any sharing site you wish to use.

I am wasting my time trying to replicate this problem unless I can use the same files.

[BenK]

Hi Trevor,

I do not exactly understand what you mean. Do you talk about two particular transitions or something you observe at each transition? For the last graph I've tried to completely cut off the fade out in order to see how the ramp ups work, but an absolute vertical cut off isn't possible. The cut off line is slightly oblique, but that doesn't obscure the view on the graphical behavior of the ramp up side. Have you tested with 50i or 60i?

Ill try to upload the clips to 4shared. Because my upload speed is quite slow, I'll compress the avi file to an mpg2 file.

Kind regards

Ben

[lata]

Hi Ben

Yes I see the effect on all your crossfades, That has effectively muted the first clip for the last few seconds which will be noticeable during playback.
However you have explained that by saying “For the last graph I've tried to completely cut off the fade out in order to see how the ramp ups work, but an absolute vertical cut off isn't possible”

Yes it is possible to remove the fade ramps, click the first clip to select it.
Select the Attributes tab, notice the Fade ramps being selected/highlighted.
Deselect.....
That will leave the first clip playing to the end with the second clip fading in.

[inyour4head]

I just logged in to get advice about a different issue and saw this post...

I have the exact same problem with the transitions using mp4 files on VS X5 SP2 and ultimately had to run the clips together and adjust the audio ramps for each clip. I'm not real happy with the rendered video but it was the best I could come up with. From my experience, this is a rendering issue as playback in the editing mode doesn't reveal the audio cutting out. Hopefully someone will be able to figure out a soluition for this.

[BenK]

@ Trevor

Hi Trevor

"Yes it is possible to remove the fade ramps, click the first clip to select it.
Select the Attributes tab, notice the Fade ramps being selected/highlighted.
Deselect.....
That will leave the first clip playing to the end with the second clip fading in."

Sure, I know that. But with your proposal, the first clip will show full sound until the end of the transition and you will not see the sound behaviour of the second clip within that transition, because it's overlaid.

What I did is to cut off the sound of the left clip of a transition at the start of that transition to clearly expose how the sound ramp up of the right clip within that transition behaves. The easiest way to do that was to manipulate the fade down lines in the sound graph representation of the project.

I have now uploaded the clips to 4shared. Please let me know what information you need to get them.

[lata]

Hi inyourhead

Can you try rendering your project but de-select Smart Render.

BenK indicated earlier that rendering without smart render had no effect and the problem still existed.
But can you check……..cheers

Ben…Using 4shared you should be able to choose a share option, this will give you a link that you can add to your post, we should then be able to access the file for download.

[inyour4head]

Same here. Disabling smart render has no effect.

[BenK]

Hi Trevor

thanks for the hint. The following link should (hopefully) do it.

http://www.4shared.com/folder/Pp3TGs2C/video_files.html

I've rendered the second clip (avi) via the corel template for mpg2HD into a mpg file. I rendered the clip sequence with that mpg instead of the avi file and the result was even somewhat worse than shown in my last graph. That surprises me a little bit because in previous tests, exchanging the avi clip for its mpg equivalent had little effect, although in those previous tests, the test sequence had one transition less - so, not exactly the same test settings. The files in the link are 1440*1080i. A test with other material at 1920*1080i also showed transition problems.

[lata]

Hi Ben
Thanks for the samples

Video Studio does not automatically apply Audio Cross fade, well not always.

There does seem to be a problem with Video Studio, at least I can replicate the effect you are seeing.

At first I thought it was your video files, the audio cuts short a few frames from the end, but I have tried with standard DV- Avi files and get the same audio problem.
Saying that the lack of audio for a few frames at the end of your video files is not gonna help. I have similar video taken with a Canon D20.
Ok
We can set the preferences (F6) to Apply Crossfade automatically and Automatically add a transition effect.
So when we add multiple clips these should be applied to the durations set in preferences. I said should be applied, it depends on how you add the video files.

Right Click timeline and add Video does not add the cross fade.
Right click the library and insert to Video Track does not add the cross fade.

Drag the files from Windows Explorer to the library or directly to the timeline and Audio crossfade is applied correctly.

Ben can you try inserting the files to the timelines by dragging from the library or windows explorer.
First insert the clips to the library, do not use existing library clips this will make sure no old fades or audio levels are applied.

Then try a right click and Insert a few clips rather than dragging