difficulties in going from Bibble5 to ASP

[rainer042]

Hello,

I have been working quite a long time with bibble, starting with bibble4 and then bibble5 on linux (OpenSuse 12.1). Recently I tested ASP since there is no ongoing develeopment for bibble.

Since I worked for years using bibble, there are a lot of photos I processed using bibble. Using ASPs trial version I browsed through my photos and what I saw, was that all the photos have unnatural strong colors (.NEF from Nikon D80). I compared the resulting jpegs from bibble5 and ASP for the same RAW and most of the time colors are simply much stronger, sometimes ASP produces a green tint where bibble5 has natural colours.

After all I would have to reprocess my photos in order to get the results I had using bibble5. This would mean a lot of work (and money for ASP) and I ask myself why was there a need to change the internal color management again (first time change was from bibble4 to bibble5)?

More important is the question is there a way to at least semi automatically adapt the results of ASP to the results I had in bibble5?

Another difference I noticed is that the straightening tool does not seem to work correctly. All the photos I processed in bibble5 that use straightening/cropping appear in ASP with a a certain amount of rotation but without any cropping, so there are grey bars at the sides. Bug or feature?

The last thing I saw after the initial time I spent with ASP up to now is that the fonts used in the application like menus are really small, probably 2px smaller that in bibble5, which makes them hardly readable. In the settings menu there is an option to use smaller fonts, however I would like to use larger fonts instead. Is there a way to adjust fontsize anywhere?

Thanks a lot
Rainer

[afx]

I compared the resulting jpegs from bibble5 and ASP for the same RAW and most of the time colors are simply much stronger, sometimes ASP produces a green tint where bibble5 has natural colours.

I assume you tested with naked defaults, not your B5 parameters?

I ask myself why was there a need to change the internal color management again (first time change was from bibble4 to bibble5)?

Because of the broken Kodak CM engine used in B5. That thing caused too much grief. Of course, the fix hurts again, depending on the camera and how it was profiled.
For my images (D70,D200,D300,D700), no major change, colors just look better by default.

More important is the question is there a way to at least semi automatically adapt the results of ASP to the results I had in bibble5?

Only if it is a systematic thing that does not mess up your other settings. You could try loading the B5 color profile.

The interesting question is, do you have a good reason to switch? A new cam not supported in B5 or a bug that is fixed in AS?

Another difference I noticed is that the straightening tool does not seem to work correctly. All the photos I processed in bibble5 that use straightening/cropping appear in ASP with a a certain amount of rotation but without any cropping, so there are grey bars at the sides. Bug or feature?

Works as designed. Crop handling was changed leading to that offset.

The last thing I saw after the initial time I spent with ASP up to now is that the fonts used in the application like menus are really small, probably 2px smaller that in bibble5, which makes them hardly readable. In the settings menu there is an option to use smaller fonts, however I would like to use larger fonts instead. Is there a way to adjust fontsize anywhere?

No. Make sure the DPI settings of your screen are correct.
Even on my 145DPI screens the fonts are nicely readable as long as the DPI value is correct.

cheers
afx

[rainer042]

I compared the resulting jpegs from bibble5 and ASP for the same RAW and most of the time colors are simply much stronger, sometimes ASP produces a green tint where bibble5 has natural colours.

I assume you tested with naked defaults, not your B5 parameters?

No I did used raw files with their xmp files created by bibble5 because thats what I want. I would like that work that I invested in making my photos look the way I want them lives on even if there is a new bibble(ASP) version. After all making the best out of a raw is a time consuming process that you want to go through once and then if possible never again. In bibble or ASP it seems you have to go through this process each new major version, which is not a good idea because its annoying for the user.

At the moment I do not have to migrate to ASP. But since bibbles developement is dead one fine day I will have to go this way maybe because bibble5 is no longer running fine on future linux installations or perhaps because ASP offers new features I would like to take advantage of.

Another difference I noticed is that the straightening tool does not seem to work correctly. All the photos I processed in bibble5 that use straightening/cropping appear in ASP with a a certain amount of rotation but without any cropping, so there are grey bars at the sides. Bug or feature?


Works as designed. Crop handling was changed leading to that offset.

Mmm. Again developers should try to look through the users eyes. In their eyes I think a known feature should always produce the same results so that work invested once is not lost. In ASP it is lost as far as straightening is concerned because I have to touch each and every photo again that uses the straightening tool from bibble 5 with auto-cropping.

I like new features and better handling but I think no one likes to do the very same work several times.

Regarding the fonts I will check the DPI setting for my display is correct. However since bibble5 on the very same display shows larger fonts and ASP show smaller ones it seems that font size has been reduced without providing a way to customize this new setting.

I guess even if Corel has special prices for ASP at the moment (until aug 1.) I will not yet buy it. My hope is that in later versions more care has been taken for "old" bibble5 users like me that want to make the transition as far as possible without loosing work already done.

Thanks
Rainer

[cookiebob]

Since I worked for years using bibble, there are a lot of photos I processed using bibble. Using ASPs trial version I browsed through my photos and what I saw, was that all the photos have unnatural strong colors (.NEF from Nikon D80). I compared the resulting jpegs from bibble5 and ASP for the same RAW and most of the time colors are simply much stronger, sometimes ASP produces a green tint where bibble5 has natural colours.

Just by comparing now an unprocessed B5 and ASP image, B5 is giving me a more yellow-greenish, darker image, ASP instead looks just perfect. Never made such comparison before, but pls have a look at the attachment where you see a more appealing image with ASP. On one thing I have to agree with you, images in ASP are oversaturated. But this isn't a deal breaker for me, as I always pushed up the saturation in B5.

Bottom line is that the B5 internal color management never was good. Now, ASP is doing these things well at first place, you'll get a better internal color management where you could just set your white-balance to auto.

After all I would have to reprocess my photos in order to get the results I had using bibble5. This would mean a lot of work (and money for ASP) and I ask myself why was there a need to change the internal color management again (first time change was from bibble4 to bibble5)?

More important is the question is there a way to at least semi automatically adapt the results of ASP to the results I had in bibble5?

Develop a preset in ASP which could match your settings as in B5. Guess you used look profile 'product reduced'? If so, desaturate (esp. the red colour as Nikons tend to oversaturate the reds), white-balance set to auto, save it as a preset and apply it to your images in ASP.

Another difference I noticed is that the straightening tool does not seem to work correctly. All the photos I processed in bibble5 that use straightening/cropping appear in ASP with a a certain amount of rotation but without any cropping, so there are grey bars at the sides. Bug or feature?

Yup, it's annoying. I came across this bug several times.

The last thing I saw after the initial time I spent with ASP up to now is that the fonts used in the application like menus are really small, probably 2px smaller that in bibble5, which makes them hardly readable. In the settings menu there is an option to use smaller fonts, however I would like to use larger fonts instead. Is there a way to adjust fontsize anywhere?

I don't like the font settings in the meta browser, it's too small. If s.o. knows a hack, pls share it with us

The more time you'll spend with ASP, the more you'll love it. Trust me.

[rainer042]

After all I would have to reprocess my photos in order to get the results I had using bibble5. This would mean a lot of work (and money for ASP) and I ask myself why was there a need to change the internal color management again (first time change was from bibble4 to bibble5)?

More important is the question is there a way to at least semi automatically adapt the results of ASP to the results I had in bibble5?

Develop a preset in ASP which could match your settings as in B5. Guess you used look profile 'product reduced'? If so, desaturate (esp. the red colour as Nikons tend to oversaturate the reds), white-balance set to auto, save it as a preset and apply it to your images in ASP.

As far as I know the preset is only valid for photos that have not been edited in bibble or ASP, a kind of defaults for all the settings bibble has for "new" photos. This would mean that I loose all other settings eg curves I already adjusted in bibble5 when I use the preset in ASP for photos that have already been edited? Please correct me if I am wrong.

In your post the difference between the bibble5 and ASP is really minimal. Below you see a photo that I processed in bibble5 and then without further editing created a jpeg from using ASP. In my case the difference is not really minimal:

jpeg created by bibble5

Jpeg created by ASP from same NEF+xmp

[afx]

As far as I know the preset is only valid for photos that have not been edited in bibble or ASP, a kind of defaults for all the settings bibble has for "new" photos.

You are confusing presets with defaults.
A preset is a a combination of settings that can be arbitrarily applied via the preset menu.
Defaults are applied to new files.

This would mean that I loose all other settings eg curves I already adjusted in bibble5 when I use the preset in ASP for photos that have already been edited? Please correct me if I am wrong.

If a preset modifies curves, it will overwrite your curves settings...

cheers
afx

[brucet]

Is there a reason to have all the old photos converted by ASP? If not then I would suggest buying ASP and starting fresh for all future photos. Bibble is gone so you will miss out on future upgrades and features. (I use PSP for PP and every new version has its good and bad points. I would consider ASP simply as an upgrade of Bibble 5)
I found ASP over saturated compared to Bibble 5. But as has been pointed out. Create some presets and apply them to your photos. Remember your RAW files haven't changed. It's the sidecar files that are determining the final outcome.

regards

[ormdig]

"I compared the resulting jpegs from bibble5 and ASP for the same RAW and most of the time colors are simply much stronger, sometimes ASP produces a green tint where bibble5 has natural colours.", rainer042.
I may be missing something but I don't understand why you would have to reprocess all of your old Bibble files if the processed files are saved to jpeg or tiff. If they are you have the image you desire. If and when you desire a different look then process a new image in either ASP or Bibble,whichever you prefer, the raw file is still the same. As brucet stated, all future photos can be processed in ASP and ,if you prefer, you still have Bibble to work on old files although I must confess I don't see why youy would want to. I work on old ( copied master versions ) files all the time in ASP. I do use the file system and have everything in a different catalogue program so I am not bringing Bibble edited versions into ASP. However, there is no reason not to import your new work, if you desire.
I think if you try it you will find ASP can be very satisfying to work with. With all the plugins available, a broad range of tools are at your command.

[susanne_j]

Hello rainer042,

first of all, let me say that I'm completely with you. I'm also not really happy about the new change of the color-processing, saturation and gradation in ASP.
But I also know, that this statement doesn't help you either, like the other ones "I have no problem with ASP-colors because of..."

At least I think, there should be a migration-tool or presets or something like that for users, but that was something we hoped to have it after the switch from bibble4 to 5 ...

I don't save the jpg's from my raw files, because my raw-file is my negative and if I need a new "printout" (Ausbelichtung?) - which might have a new crop or some other settings or even if they have no additional change - I do it again from the raw-file. And that's the point where the hassle starts with the different color-processing between bibble5 and asp.
(beside of that I haven't found my perfect defaults for ASP)
In my case, it doesn't have to do with converting all photos from b5 to asp. As time goes by, several photos are opened and has to be reprocessed again in ASP while they are "finished" in B5. Just the case if someone asked me to have a new CD with photos from their wedding etc. (I don't have a copy of this CD, so I search for photos from this wedding with the correct star-rating and save them as jpg's again...)

Nevertheless, I "made" the switch from B5 to ASP, but I'm not really completely satisfied with the results... maybe it will need some additional time to make completely friends with ASP.

Okay, there is nothing helpfull in the above words for your problem...:

I tried to create a preset which might come a bit near to the results of B5... not perfect at the moment, I think I have to handle each color-channel separatly but it might be a starting point (it has to mention, that the preset modifies the curves and some other settings like saturation...) but maybe you would like to try it out.

It could be find at the end of the follogwing thread:
http://forum.corel.com/EN/viewtopic.php ... 76#p250930

Best regards,
Susanne.

[rainer042]

@ormdig:
To some degree you are right. I do need need to rework all of my raw files to ASP because I have jpgs. However even after years I often choose eg some photos and make printouts or posters of them and then I often see that the jpg could still be better if I change some settings a little. Or I decide to make a photobook from the photos of a holiday trip and find that some photos need some more changes.
In this case its annoying if you cannot simply continue what you have already done before simply because since things have changed internally in your raw processor and even your old settings already produce a different looking jpg.

Think you were an author writing books and magazines. You are writing your books with a formatting that your publisher wants from you. Then your word processor gets an update and formatting changes because of internal changes. All your books suddenly have a different formatting than before (the early version of MS word were "famous" for doing such things). This simply should not happen. And if it is needed for application internal reasons there should be a way to convert the old "documents" so that they look the same using the new release. Thats my point.

I do not know how much time you invest typically in optimizing a photo for eg raw->jpg conversion. For me this depends on the photo. For some not so interesting photos I simply use perfectly clear and thats it. For the photos that I really like I can spend up to an hour for one photo to get things optimally. And its this work I do not want to do again.

@susanne:
Yes I agree completely with you. Either settings in bibble5 should always produce the same output even in a new version or there should be a way to convert the old settings so that the result is again like before using the new system. This is missing in ASP at the moment.

I found out that the more I used all the features of bibble5 the more differences show up in ASP. In raw files where I used layers to restrict editing operations to several parts of a photo eg to make a blue sky a little more blue and to insert some fill light and color to the landscape below or mask out an object. At the main level I added a little more saturation for the whole photo. Such layered editing then results in stronger changes in the ASP output compared to a raw where I just edited curves to get more contrast which then looks quite identically to the output in ASP. The photo I posted above is an example for this.

When playing around with the demo version browsing through my photos ASP hung up several times on my openSuSE 12.1 system. I could only kill the process and then restart ASP. This happened about three times in about half an hour. bibble5 does not show this problem on the very same system. So after all I asked myself if it is sensible to spend $ for ASP which does not yet run stable for me and causes me headaches because of the different output? And at the moment I decided to answer myself no this is not really sensible although I really like bibble especially since it is the very best software available for linux users.

Have a nice day
Rainer

[steje44]

When playing around with the demo version browsing through my photos ASP hung up several times on my openSuSE 12.1 system. I could only kill the process and then restart ASP. This happened about three times in about half an hour. bibble5 does not show this problem on the very same system. So after all I asked myself if it is sensible to spend $ for ASP which does not yet run stable for me and causes me headaches because of the different output? And at the moment I decided to answer myself no this is not really sensible although I really like bibble especially since it is the very best software available for linux users.

Hello,

I have a Linux Mint (Maya) Version. And ASP works very fine. No problems and very stable. No freeze or hung up´s!
But with Unity (Ubuntu) I have some problems, too. Here is Unity the problem....!