Panning shots OK in camera LCD but very jerky on computer

[ianincrete]

I take my SD card out of the camera, put it in a card reader and use Windows Explorer to drag from the card reader to the file where I want to download.

[lata]

Hi

Ken i have sent a link from my Sky Drive account, i think you should be able to download from there.

Ian

I cannot understand why the Data Rate is different for each file.
Media Info also indicates this.

When i viewed the Sonyo web site it mentioned downloading using I Tunes, however Ithink this related to I-pods

Can you install i-tunes and explore the options to download the files direct from camera.

[ianincrete]

I have put the files I downloaded from the camera to the hard drive via a card reader onto a usb memory stick and played them on my TV and they look just as good as the files played on the TV direct from my camera through a connecting cable. Doesn't this suggest that the files are arriving at the hard disc in an uncorrupted condition?

[lata]

Sorry for quick reply, just on the way to sports centre.............
can you change the project properties to NTSC

Settings - Project Properties

NTSC drop frame (29.97 fps)
MPEG files
24 bits, 720 x 480, 29.97 fps
Frame-based
(DVD-NTSC), 16:9
Video data rate: Variable (Max. 6000 kbps)
LPCM Audio, 48000 Hz, Stereo

[ianincrete]

Yes, I can try that. You are helping way beyond the call of duty. Thanks hugely.

[ianincrete]

Right I've done that, and I've dropped three smart proxies onto the timeline. What format should the final video file be?

[lata]

Hi Ian

I think part of the problem is a mix between Pal and NTSC.
Still dont understand about the different data rates, seems strange to me?

As Crete uses Pal I assume you have installed Video Studio to Pal.
This uses 25fps, playing a NTSC at 29fps will create some judder.
Changing the project properties should sort that.

When you convert the video using the standard templates you are most likely to use 25fps, this is gonna cause some judder as 4+frames are removed per second. (29.97 to 25 fps)

I created three templates to render the first sample one uses 1280 x 720 at 29.97fps whilst the other at 1920 x 1080, but can only select 30fps not 29.97.
One to Transport Stream 1920 x 1080 29fps

I have uploaded these new clips to your 4Shared folder.

Certainly playback using Ntsc looks better, don't have time to check them out on the tv
There is still a bit of judder with some pixelisation but that may be the panning.

Download the samples
Insert to Vs timeline, right click to check properties, use Make Movie Manager to create simular templates.

Hope the weather is good on Crete, over here its just stopped raining after 3 days

Need to finish the packing..........

[ianincrete]

Will do. I think it must be something to do with the frame rate but as far as I know lots of camcorders record at 60p, 60i and 30p so VS ought to be able to handle it. Is it tomorrow you are coming to Crete? The weather forecast is pretty good. Lots of sun and temperatures in the low 70sF, low 20sC. You should have a great time.

[Ken Berry]

I have finally managed to download the three original files from the alternate website Trevor provided.

The three original files play smoothly in WMP, although there is slight jerkiness in armeni02 around the middle of the clip. (All display the blur associated with too fast panning... So apart from your jerkiness problem, my advice would be to pan just a little bit slower. And with your floating head tripod, you should be able to control that speed.)

In VLC player, there was moderate jerkiness in armeni and armeni02; less in armeni01 – though still some around the middle.

Quicktime player 7.7.1 gave identical results to VLC.

I also rendered aremeni01 to AVCHD 1920 x 1080, but it was extremely jerky – though some of this could have been attributable to the fact that I used PAL AVCHD settings. Thus, some of the frames were lost as mentioned by Trevor.

I next rendered to Custom > MPEG Transport Stream, where I selected NTSC AVCHD 1920 x 1080 as the output. I rendered one file frame based and the other as Upper Field First. Both played back jerkily in both VS and VLC.

I also rendered to Custom > MP4 H.264 Main 1280 x 720 at 30p Frame Based. Again it was jerky in both VS and VLC.

I then tried Custom > Mov format 1280 x720. Still jerky and the video quality was frankly terrible, with lots of pixellation and lack of clarity.

Just to see what might happen, I also tried rendering to NTSC HDV (mpeg-2) using 30 fps frame based 1920 x 1080. But again it was jerky in both VS and VLC.

FWIW, I also rendered to NTSC DVD quality, but again the result was jerky.

I also thought I might try WebM, the new replacement for .flv. I custom set the frame size to 1280 x 720. The render time was very slow: minutes as opposed to seconds for all the other formats.

Then I tried WMV using the Corel Screen Capture Profile 1920 x 1080 as about the highest quality output I could find in that format. But the result was perhaps the worst of the lot in terms of jerkiness.

Finally -- and I could think of no other possibility -- I tried the new Flash format WebM set to 1280 x 720. It took a staggering 18 minutes to render armeni01. But alas, it was also jerky... And while it looked to have decent clarity in the VS preview screen, in VLC full screen, it was very pixellated.

So I have to confess I am almost totally stumped...

There is, however, one (strong?) possibility, but that will necessitate you looking for your Sanyo CD. I clearly recall when Sanyo started introducing the Xacti HD range two or three years ago, that it soon became clear that they were using their own codec for their camcorders. They even issued the codec on their website at the time, though I don't know if it or its successor is there still. But the fact that your Xacti is producing HD video using an h.264 codec, but with an mp4 extension, rather than the much more common .mts or .m2ts extensions on Sony, Panasonic and Canon AVCHD camcorders, suggests to me that Sanyo may still be using their own version of the codec with their own tweaks applied. And the best place to find such a codec would be on the installation disc which came with the camcorder. Failing that, you might need to get in touch with Sanyo or search their website. So happy hunting!

Footnote: Trevor -- your concern over the varying bitrates in the three clips is not really a worry. You will recall that such camcorders use a variable bitrate, and the bitrates cited for each clip are thus the average maximum bitrate for that particular clip. All three clips have different durations, and that is possibly enough to result in differing average maxima for the clips. One of the clips, moreover, covers a slightly different subject, and that too will cause the differing bitrate, which is affected by light and dark and the degree of detail, plus other factors. While the other two clips are essentially of the same section of ruins/graves, apart from the differing length, other factors such as the sun being slightly brighter or darker (a cloud?) for that clip, may have come into play. Even differing panning speeds will affect the overall bitrate, given that a slightly slower pan will reveal slightly higher detail (and thus use a higher bitrate) than a faster pan.

[ianincrete]

Thank you very much for making so much effort to try and get a decent result from my clips. Tragically I have just acquired the camcorder second hand and there was no CD with it. I am rather anxious as I'm about to invest no little time, effort and money in doing some filming of archaeological sites here in Crete and it would be a disaster if all my footage were to remain unusable. I recently contacted Sanyo about something else and they told me that they were in the process of closing down, having been bought out by Panasonic and I'd have to address my concerns to them so it's all a little bleak. The only good news is that once stuff gets put on the Internet it does tend to stay there for a long time so if I can find the codec I could be back in business. Once again thanks for doing all that converting.

Regards,

Ian Swindale

[Ken Berry]

After writing the above, it occurred to me that I had not tried .avi options. So I tried that, using the following codecs: ffdshow, XVid; DV; and Matrox uncompressed HD (which I happen to have in relation to another program). All produced jerky output, unfortunately. So that is that.

I might note that I also opened your video in GSpot, which analyses among other things the codec used. Interestingly enough, while it identified the codec as h.264/MPEG-4 AVC, it said its status was 'Undetermined'. When looking at possible solutions GSpot might suggest to the problem, it said, succinctly enough 'GSpot is not yet capable of trying to render this video type', which I guess sums it up for VS as well.

Have you looked at the Sanyo website or done a Google search? I wasn't aware Sanyo was being taken over by Panasonic...

Edit: I just did a Google search for 'Xacti codec', and the first few returns all look promising...

[ianincrete]

I googled Sanyo codecs and got a long list of links to people complaining about jerky footage. Basically it seems that the codec used by Sanyo for h.264 is not standard and therefore you cannot use commercial video editors to edit their clips. Considering it was put on the market three years ago, offering full hd in progressive mode, I cannot understand why they would use a non-standard codec that means you can't edit the film. There is no firmware upgrade to resolve the problem. I finally found the software that came with the camera and it has no codecs there. It has Nero Essentials 8 which I installed and it offers the most incredibly basic editing facilities and won't save files to hard disc in MP4 format. I can't believe that these problems weren't pointed out by reviewers who were full of praise for the picture quality of the camera. So it seems I'm stuck. I don't know if I can get into all the changing file format stuff which I struggle to understand. And to cap it all after I installed Nero 8 my computer refused to restart and I couldn't boot it up for 15 minutes! I don't know whether to throw all my equipment in the sea or myself in the sea right at this moment.I think I'm going t have to get myself a new camera.

[lata]

Hi

Thanks Ken

I must admit my test renders showed a marked improvement, i suppose beauty is in the eye......
I have uploaded two of my rendered attempts to the sky drive folder. the 1280 x 720 looks better to my eye

When viewing in VS change the project properties to NTSC.

[Ken Berry]

it offers the most incredibly basic editing facilities and won't save files to hard disc in MP4 format.

Well, what output format does it offer? There is little point in it doing editing unless it can output in some format(s) or other... And it would be that basic editing program which would install the codec, not Nero...

[ianincrete]

Hi Ken and Terry,

The problem is solved. Don't kill me! I had another go at what Trevor suggested yesterday. I must have done it wrong the first time or failed to save the new settings somehow. It was the project properties all along. Because I entered Greece as my home country the program made PAL the default setting and the project properties were set at 25 fps, whereas my camera records at 30 fps. That explains why when I played individual clips in the preview area they looked OK, but as soon as I selected Project and watched the same clips, they were dropping frames like nobody's business. I didn't realise that what you chose in project properties would affect what happened when you rendered to MP4HD. I thought it only affected what you saw in the preview pane.

I've just changed the properties from PAL DVD to NTSC DVD and all the other properties, and managed to save the settings properly this time and the judder has gone. For some reason it still doesn't look so good in QuickTime but it looks fine in VLan and Windows Media Player and excellent on my TV via usb memory stick. I know that you suggested this yesterday, Trevor, and I'm sorry I made a mess of applying your suggestion then. But at least, thanks to your help, I got there in the end. It is such a relief to be able to go off on my video shoot without worrying about whether I'd ever be able to use the material I shot. For that I owe you a great debt of gratitude.

Thanks you both very, very much for making so much effort to help me. It is wonderful to know that such helpful people exist. And Terry I hope the south wind dies down soon so that your experience of Crete is the best possible.