Edit 1080/50p .mts then Export into the same 1080/50p .mts

[amateur]

Hi Everybody,

Here is an extract from the Corel web site:
"VideoStudio® Pro X5 also supports the frame rates found in newer HD camcorders, so you can edit in 50 or 60fps mode, which is ideal for higher quality and slow motion sports effects in footage."

I use my 3 years old Panasonic HDC-TM300 (released in 2009) camera in 1080/50i (17Mbps) mode and I'm planning to upgrade it to one of the newest models HC-X900M/HC-X900/HC-X800 just released in 2012.

These brand new cameras can be used in 1080/50p mode (28Mbps) which results in beautiful footage and their Image Stabilization is almost perfect.
Previous models like HDC-TM700 (released in 2010) or HDC-TM900 (released in 2011) are also able to shoot in 1080/50p by the way.

Somehow the video editor software manufacturers are in a big delay however I know that 1080/50p (AVCHD Version 2.0) was standardized only in July 2011.

My question is the following: is it possible with X5 to edit 1080/50p .mts video files then to export them into the same 1080/50p .mts format without any downgrading?

The only modification is just the editing work should be.

Editing and exporting are two different things, but this is the key issue.


Other vendors claim that their product (eg. AVID, Vegas Pro 10) is able to edit 1080/50p but nobody mentions whether is it also possible to export these edited videos into the original .mts 1080/50p format or not?


PS: if it is not possible then the 1080/50p is useless due to the necessary quality decreasing!
maybe this is the reason why the camera producers still keep in their brand new models the "good old" 1080/50i mode...,
but what is the technical reason of missing this 1080/50p .mts output format, only the delay in software development?

Thanks for your help in advance.

Best wishes!

[erdna]

Yes 1080p50 is OK with Corel. Also with X4 (and even VSX2 in high bitratate mpeg2 mode!). I enjoy working with tm700 in 1080p50 mode since it apeared on the market. To get informed plse check several related entries in this forum.

[amateur]

It is from a previous thread:

"by Ken Berry on Fri Mar 02, 2012 2:27 pm

>Play on an HD tv that displays as progressive, shoot as 50p, edit as 50p, output as a bluray disc, or onto a medium that the tv can accept.<

There is a slight problem with that regarding Blu-Ray discs. At the moment, the international Blu-Ray standard only accepts 50p video (0r 60 for NTSC) which has a frame size of 1280 x 720. So you would have to downsize your 1920 x 1080 if you were burning a Blu-Ray disc at 50p. But I simply put my 50p video on a USB stick drive or an external hard disk which I then plug into my PlayStation 3 Blu-Ray player, which plays it back perfectly on my HDTV.

While talking of international standards, the one for standard definition DVDs will only allow video at a frame rate of 25/29.97 fps.
Ken Berry"


Last year I switched from VSX3 to another vendor's video editor but I'm interested in VSX5 now.

I have two main purposes with the edited videos.
1. Output into file 1920x1080 50p 16:9 Audio 5.1 original 28Mbps then play it back on my media player box (no downsizing at all, just editing).
Questions:
What type of output formats can be selected for this in VSX5 (.mts, .m2ts. avi, or else?)
What are the names of the output templeates provided by VSX5 for this purpose?
Could someone list these possible output formats and/or extension options based on experience?

2. After finishing the editing I also would like to output into file 720x576 25p Audio 5.1 bitrate 8Mbps then burn these files onto DVD DL disc with menu.
Questions:
What type of output formats can be selected for this in VSX5 (.mpg. mpeg2, or else?)
What is the name of the output template provided by VSX5 for this purpose?
Could someone list these possible output formats and/or extension options based on experience?

Thanks in advance!

[amateur]

Yes 1080p50 is OK with Corel. Also with X4 (and even VSX2 in high bitratate mpeg2 mode!). I enjoy working with tm700 in 1080p50 mode since it apeared on the market. To get informed plse check several related entries in this forum.

hi erdna,

thanks for your reply. namely I'm not interested in the capabilities of VSX2 since I know that crappy software very well. that made a lot of frustration for me and for lots of other corel users just go back into 2010 on this forum and read over all my posts regarding to the transition blips or other nice bugs.

i also don't care about the unofficial workarounds of VSX4 (creating my own template and finally converting my edited video into a new "format" which is AVI).

i stopped using corel video studio at VSX3 but now i am interested in the features of VSX5 regarding to p50 exporting (create video file) formats!

here is what they claim about X5: "VideoStudio® Pro X5 also supports the frame rates found in newer HD camcorders, so you can edit in 50 or 60fps mode, which is ideal for higher quality and slow motion effects in sports footage."

but this sentence tells nothing about the interesting details. as i mentioned i don't want to convert my .MTS 50p videos into any other HD formats just to edit them then to export into the same .MTS 50p (exporting into SD format is just for the sake of my friends who have no HD media players).

reading through the threads i see that people are just walking in the dark and they have no idea about it or they are just not wliling to check the answers to my questions 1-2. (see above). i hoped that someone who has X5 answers me and i don't have to fill in my computer with s**** trial versions.

is it really a big question from my side on a corel forum?

best wishes,
amateur

[amateur]

After further searching i found answers on the forum and now i still don't want to use Corel products in the near future again.--------------------------------------------------
by Ken Berry on Thu Mar 08, 2012 5:01 am

Well, yes. I took part in the Beta testing process, though I confess it was a strange process from the start. And the very first thing I raised was the 50/60p issue and the bitrate one to which you refer. As you note, the 50/60p rate is now resolved, up front. But on investigation, I found that the bitrate one was also resolved, though less obviously.

The big negative mark against it is that if you want to make a template for it using the normal template making method of entering the properties manually, you are still limited to a max bitrate for AVCHD video of 18 Mbps when the new international standard is 27 Mbps for 50/60p (and 3D). So that would at first appear to be a significant cause for concern.

The good news in this regard, though, is that using the Add method of making a new Template appears to work when you point the program at a sample file using 50p and (in the case of my chosen sample) a bitrate of 26 Mbps (for details, see below). Using Share > Create Video File > Same As First Clip also works -- although what would happen in my case where my first clip is almost invariably an uncompressed AVI title file I have created, I don't know yet. But of course I could use my new Template in those circumstances.One sad thing is that you still can't set Project Properties for high definition formats. That doesn't bother me personally since I have not used Project Properties for many years. But it is -- and will continue to be -- a significant problem for newer users who think it has a greater significance than it actually does or who actually try to use Share > Create Video File > Same As Project Properties with unfortunate outcomes.

As a footnote to my reference above to the Add method, for those who don't know how to make such a template you need to have a sample file with the properties (including higher bitrate) you wish to include in the template. Then choose Tools > Make Movie Templates Manager. Then in the dialogue box which appears, click 'Add' down at the bottom. In the new dialogue box which appears, click the '...' button beside 'File Path' and navigate to where your sample video is stored, then select it. The file path should now appear in the dialogue box. Give the Template a sensible name you will remember. Then click OK then Close to get out of the dialogue boxes. Next time you open X5's Editing module, and you want to produce an identical video, choose Share > Create Video File, and in the drop-down menu your new template should appear down towards the bottom. It will include the higher bitrate.

Note that templates made in this way cannot be later edited. If you try, the template will revert to default DVD SD properties and you would have to make a new template to get back to what you had.

Note also that this is not a workaround but a valid alternative method of making a template which has been around in successive versions for some years now.

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by Natal on Thu Mar 08, 2012 5:17 am

Ok, I stand corrected. They did not leave the encoder in X4 alone, they managed to mess it up in X5.

I have a test shot of a sunset over water with an island on the horizon, which shows as low mountains. If there are compression artifacts the mountains are reduced to blocks, so its pretty obvious.

The original shot:
AVCHD 1920x1080, 30fps, H.264
data rate 22.3 mbps, 208 MB

File produced using "same as first clip"
With X4: Data rate 22.3 mbps, 208 MB
With X5: Data rate 19.3 mbps, 181 MB (shows compression artifacts)

File produced using MPEG optimiser
With X4: Data rate 22.3 mbps, 208 MB
With X5: Data rate 19.3 mbps, 181 MB (shows compression artifacts)

File produced using BluRay H.264 preset
With X4: Data rate 19.3 mbps, 180 MB (shows compression artifacts)
With X5: Data rate 19.5 mbps, 182 MB (shows compression artifacts)

File produced using BluRay MPEG2 preset
With X4: Data rate 35.0 mbps, 309 MB
With X5: Data rate 35.0 mbps, 309 MB

So, to summarize:

A) The MPEG2 rendering works fine, doesnt show compression artifacts (horizon looks like the original). The file size increases due to the higher bit rate. The same file is generated in X4 and X5, in other words it is encoding the same.

B) The H.264 preset shows compression artifacts in both programs, probably due to the reduced bit rate as a result of the cap VS imposes. Oddly enough the file sizes and bit rates are not exactly the same, suggesting that SOMETHING was done. The output is crap in both cases however.

C) The MPEG optimiser generates a file which is the same as the original in X4, but imposes the H.264 bit rate cap in X5. In other words X5 is a downgrade from X4 for files generated in this manner (even though it claims to be generating the original bitrate when you produce the file).

D) The "same as first clip" generates a file which is the same as the original in X4, but imposes the H.264 bit rate cap in X5. In other words X5 is a downgrade from X4 for files generated in this manner (even though it claims to be generating the original bitrate when you produce the file).The bottom line is that X5 can no longer produce an unadulterated H.264 clip from footage generated by cameras that shoot at 24 mbps. So, this is a loss of functionality compared to X4.

The recommendation is to stick with X4 if you are producing HD high bit rate H.264 footage. X5 will degrade that footage.
Both X4 and X5 appear equivalent if the footage is rendered in MPEG2 (which is pretty decent compared to the original).
I haven't tried any original footage which has a filter applied yet. X4 might render that and impose a lower bit rate (with consequent loss of resolution), I don't know.

Overall I think MPEG2 is the better option, at least until (or if) Corel patches

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good luck to everybody!

[erdna]

Hi amateur,
You don't have to use "arix's method" in VSX2 if you don't like it. I just mentioned it as a possibillity. I can however assure you that this conversion to high bitrate mpeg2 is visually lossless. and doesn't show the well known X2 blibs.
For X4 (workflow which I use since Kingston showed the way to get 1080p)read http://forum.corel.com/EN/viewtopic.php ... rogressive

[amateur]

Hi amateur,
You don't have to use "arix's method" in VSX2 if you don't like it. I just mentioned it as a possibillity. I can however assure you that this conversion to high bitrate mpeg2 is visually lossless. and doesn't show the well known X2 blibs.
For X4 (workflow which I use since Kingston showed the way to get 1080p)read http://forum.corel.com/EN/viewtopic.php ... rogressive

Hi erdna,

Thank you so much for the link!
Q1. So you say that if i have the mpeg output file with 20Mbps then the quality loss visually can be neglected (even if the source is .mts or .m2ts 28Mbps)?
If I understand it well then this is really good news.

Firstly I will upgrade my still camera (Panasonic TZ5) to TZ30 which can shoot 1080 50p also and I can test Kingston's solution.
If it is ok then I can also upgrade my camcorder for a new one which records in 50p.

Q2. Until that is it possible to download 1080 50p sample videos from anywhere (maximum 30-40seconds and just a few ones)?
Q3. Is it true that with 32GB internal flash plus 32GB external SDHC I can shoot maximum about 1h 30m?
Q4. I'm still curious what is the 50p workflow in X5, anyone to share experiences?

By the way it would be very nice to see in the feature list (X5, X6, ...) that "AVCHD 2.0 compatibility".

Regards,
amateur

[pepegota]

This is a half-a attempt by Corel at AVCHD 2.0. You cannot get the full resolution of your 60P data. You are limited to 20 Gig/sec. Therefore, your video is diminished in quality, slightly. "Same as First Clip" is a poor excuse of a work-around. Project settings needs to be addresses to incorporate AVCHD 2.0. No doubt, some day, this will be addressed. Until then, we must wait.

[amateur]

This is a half-a attempt by Corel at AVCHD 2.0. You cannot get the full resolution of your 60P data. You are limited to 20 Gig/sec. Therefore, your video is diminished in quality, slightly. "Same as First Clip" is a poor excuse of a work-around. Project settings needs to be addresses to incorporate AVCHD 2.0. No doubt, some day, this will be addressed. Until then, we must wait.

pepegota, if we have to wait for AVCHD 2.0 compatibility then for the corel users it means one year waiting (VSX6 next spring...), bad news.

Yesterday i downloaded some 50p sample videos (recorded by TM700) from the internet and made some tests with VSX3 since this is what i have.
The results are quite strange.

1. In case of m2t (mpeg 20Mbps) i can set only a maximum of 1280x720 resolution no Full HD (this is the standard and only option, the custome settings are greyed, maybe this is the case only in VSX3...)
2. if i put two clips onto the timeline and i create mpeg 20Mbps output then the rendered video includes only the first clip
3. if i put a transition between the two clips then the mpeg 20Mbps output file includes both of the clips
4. if i cut off the last few frames of the first clip and the first few frames of the second clip without any transition then there are the blips between the clips when i play it back on my computer.

I suspense my Corel testings since i still have lots of 1080i stuff to edit (with the reliable Nero 10).

By the way my questions are still wait for answers:
Q3. Is it true that with 32GB internal flash plus 32GB external SDHC I can shoot maximum about 1h 30m?
Q4. I'm still curious what is the 50p workflow in X5, anyone to share experiences?