Very poor rendering quality for HD files in VS X4

[Flashclicker]

Hello there ! I´m new here in that Forum and this is my first post.
I followed that topic here and in case of rendering 1080i videos in Videostudio proX4 I also got some problems with it. I´ve created an Project File with

PAL (25 fps)
Microsoft AVI Dateien
24 Bit, 1920 x 1080, 25 fps
Oberes Halbbild zuerst [upper field]
Xvid MPEG-4 Codec
PCM, 44,100 kHz; 16 Bit; Stereo

... these settings are close to my files created by my camcorder.

My camcorder [Sony HDR-CX130] creates *m2t files like this and I have no problems with it, opening these files in VideoStudio ProX4, adding titles, filters, etc. etc.

But then it comes to the Output of the Video and I tried many many different ways of rendering it and also followed some tips here.

The Problem is, if I select the point "Same as first videoclip" everything is fine, but only at the "untouched" videomaterial. If a filter by Corel Videostudio is in use, i.e. a picture in video or i.e. text appears, the video starts stuttering [not really stuttering, but it seems the framerate is reduced] and a lot of fragments are visible. So the quality is better after the effect. I´m gonna show you a 10 seconds example clip here. If you look this interlaced clip in VLC you should De-interalce it in BOB-mode or in Linear-Mode ...

So - my clip is uploaded .... maybe someone has a solution for this problem or corel will fix it maybe ?
http://www.4shared.com/video/IqWXiaJV/2 ... furl=d1url

[Ken Berry]

... and I meant to add birthday greetings to Al Jimenez!

[aljimenez]

... and I meant to add birthday greetings to Al Jimenez!

Well, aren't you clever! Thanks, it's nice to have been alive for 68 years! Even nicer to have such joy with a wife, 4 daughters and five grands that love me.

[Ken Berry]

Flashclicker -- was there a specific reason you wanted to create XVid files? Why didn't you choose AVCHD as the output?

[Flashclicker]

Sorry, forgot to mention this !!!

My main aim is to make BluRay and/or AVCHD discs. And if I render the project as BluRay Video File or AVCHD Video file ... it really doesn´t matter what Output settings I´ve done. I tried a lot settings along with the output and the project files. These issues with text, filters, pictures, etc. are still there in the final video like you can see on my uploaded example.

At last I tried doin' output as *avi via using other encoders like ffdshow or x264vfw , but there are way too many parameters I cannot handle this. So maybe someone here can help me with this how to set them up.

By the way - before I purchased the camcorder - I´ve done DVD with Videostudio and never got issues like that.

And I think this also is neccessary to mention: I don´t get those issues, if I work with FullHD 1080 progressive material, everything is fine there. These issues are only appear if I work with interlaced material. Maybe tomorrow I can upload an example videoclip in 1080p with no issues like that.

The reason why I´ve chosen 1080i instead of often called "better" 1080p is, if I put the original *.m2t files on USB stick and played them on my TV I cannot see any difference between 1080i and 1080p files. It seems the TV de-interlaces the material perfectly, like the de-interlacer methods in VLC Media Player ["Bob" and "Linear"]. So why using BIG files in 1080p if you can have smaller files in 1080i ? Also the camcorder does not waste as much energy if I do film in 1080i mode.

So - before I purchased my camcorder - I expected havin' more problems with 1080p material than 1080i material, cos 1080i is Bluray compatible and 1080p not.

Maybe someone can help me ?

[lata]

Hi Al

and a Happy Birthday from the UK, guess I have a little catching up to do, only have two grandchildren.
Tristan the recent addition is 5 month. Lovely little fella.

Anyhow you mentioned progressive, Peters video uses interlaced as you know, he simply wanted to compare renders using similar settings, like for like, I don’t seem to have problems in creating good video. The type of quality Peter describes just does not happen to me, maybe I am looking in the wrong place. But I have to be ultra critical to see a problem. Doug2006 also creates good video.
Yesterday I played my versions via usb on a bluray player, no problems?

Ken Berry on the other hand does have playback problems, so I don’t really know what is happening.

Peter viewed Dougs and my samples and indicated they were poor. I can only think it is Peters computer that’s causing the problem not directly Video Studio.

Flashclicker
I downloaded your sample, it is bad, but its panning is very erratic and makes it difficult to comment on the actual quality.
Are you able to download Peters Original Mpeg video, and render to his workflow.
http://forum.corel.com/EN/viewtopic.php ... 30#p242780

[Peter100]

Let me start with few quick comments before continuing.

Comment 1
Trevor – I have looked at your 100% .H264 clip and it has the same strobing effect as MPEG optimizer file. The road white line on your screen capture you provided is much better that mine but not as good as original. There are also reduced details on the rocks and sky has banding in colors.

Comments 2
It is good to see that I am not the only one who is experiencing this strobing problem. Flashclicker seem to have exactly the same issue although in PAL.


Now the new information:
There seems to be some funny things happening in VS when it comes to rendering and writing media info into the file. For example the road clip that contains no-rendered and rendered portion in it has one common media info. This info seems to be taken form the beginning of a file. However when I cut and separate the rendered portion only and examine its properties, It seems to have different settings. Here is a comparason:

Entire clip

ID : 0 (0x0)
Complete name : C:\Users\Peter\Downloads\Road X4.mpg
Format : BDAV
Format/Info : Blu-ray Video
File size : 23.2 MiB
Duration : 11s 884ms
Overall bit rate mode : Variable
Overall bit rate : 16.4 Mbps
Maximum Overall bit rate : 20.6 Mbps

Video
ID : 4113 (0x1011)
Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L4.0
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 2 frames
Format settings, GOP : M=2, N=15
Codec ID : 27
Duration : 11s 945ms
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 15.3 Mbps
Maximum bit rate : 16.0 Mbps
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 29.970 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Interlaced
Scan order : Top Field First
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.246
Stream size : 21.8 MiB (94%)

Here is the media info for rendered portion alone:

ID : 0 (0x0)
Complete name : C:\Users\Peter\Downloads\Peter.mpg
Format : BDAV
Format/Info : Blu-ray Video
File size : 11.2 MiB
Duration : 5s 762ms
Overall bit rate mode : Variable
Overall bit rate : 16.3 Mbps
Maximum Overall bit rate : 20.6 Mbps

Video
ID : 4113 (0x1011)
Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L4.0
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 2 frames
Format settings, GOP : M=3, N=15
Codec ID : 27
Duration : 5s 873ms
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 15.2 Mbps
Maximum bit rate : 16.0 Mbps
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 29.970 fps
Standard : NTSC
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Interlaced
Scan order : Top Field First
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.245
Stream size : 10.7 MiB (95%)
Color primaries : BT.709-5, BT.1361, IEC 61966-2-4, SMPTE RP177
Transfer characteristics : BT.709-5, BT.1361
Matrix coefficients : BT.709-5, BT.1361, IEC 61966-2-4 709, SMPTE RP177

As you can see the bit rate is different the colors and transfer characteristics are different etc. This would explain at least in part, why I see color degradation/banding on the sky and other artifacts in rendered portion of video. By the way provided by Trevor’s and Dough’s files (i.e rendered portions of them) have the same characteristics as well. Althoug this would explain quality degradation it does not seem to have significan frame rate or mojor bit rate change to cause the strobing effect. So it remains mistery why it is there.

This shows that one file created by VS it can have different portions in it with different bit rates, color codes etc. This would explain why when I try to create a AVCHD DVD with another program, it hangs exactly at the place where Corel inserts overlay tilte. I also experience another inconsistence example with one of my slide shows rendered to AVCHD 60i format with 16 Mbps and cap rate at 20.6 Mbps. When playing it on the TV I could see during transitions that bit rate goes beyond that to 24Mbps which should not be possible. All this tells me that VS can crate and combine different formats within one file. This could be the problem for the playing device as it gets wrong/misleading information from the media file on how it should decode it.


Peter

[Peter100]

Just for comparison the original uncut unmodified straight from camcorder clip media info for the road clip is as follow:

ID : 0 (0x0)
Complete name : C:\Lab\Video\Corel\Input\00004.MTS
Format : BDAV
Format/Info : Blu-ray Video
File size : 42.0 MiB
Duration : 20s 523ms
Overall bit rate mode : Variable
Overall bit rate : 17.2 Mbps
Maximum Overall bit rate : 18.0 Mbps

Video
ID : 4113 (0x1011)
Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L4.0
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 2 frames
Format settings, GOP : M=2, N=15
Codec ID : 27
Duration : 20s 454ms
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 16.0 Mbps
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 29.970 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Interlaced
Scan order : Top Field First
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.257
Stream size : 39.1 MiB (93%)

Audio
ID : 4352 (0x1100)
Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
Format : AC-3
Format/Info : Audio Coding 3
Mode extension : CM (complete main)
Codec ID : 129
Duration : 20s 544ms
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 448 Kbps
Channel(s) : 6 channels
Channel positions : Front: L C R, Side: L R, LFE
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Bit depth : 16 bits
Compression mode : Lossy
Delay relative to video : -67ms
Stream size : 1.10 MiB (3%)

Text
ID : 4608 (0x1200)
Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
Format : PGS
Codec ID : 144
Duration : 19s 955ms
Delay relative to video : -67ms

When you compare this to rendered by VS X4 result ( i.e rendering using smart rendering which supose to leave the file unchanges ) it shows that VS in fact makes some slightly changes to it.

[Peter100]

OK I went to the A/V store and tried to played Travor, Dough and my files from both USB and AVCHD DVD disc which I made. I tried just few different BD+TVs combination (i.e. what ever it was accessible). Here is what I have found:

Some TVs play the files better than others, however overall there was noticeable (but not huge) difference between original portion and rendered one. Two TVs showed rather strong strobing effect for all 3 files. Others TVs (especially 480Hz model) play it rather smooth. However there was a noticeable strobing for about 1~2 sec when played clip transition between non-rendered to rendered part (perhaps TV was trying to adjust to changed bit rate and color scheme). One TV could not play rendered files. To my judgment the quality of rendered portions particularly transition in a sky color, details in the shadows of rocks and tree details were all degraded, but not to the same degree as on my PC system or home TV.

One think that needs to be kept in mind is that TVs in the stores are usually set to a “demo” setting, which is far off from optimal viewing conditions. Those settings typically have maximum brightness, contrast, color, motion control enabled etc.

Just for the record, I did not examine or change any of those settings.


Peter

[Kingston]

After creating a shared file in X5 and X4 with Original.mpg, I played them back in Splash Pro with deinterlacing set to Auto. There is something wrong with the video created by X4. The lines in the rocks don't mesh very well, meaning the upper and lower fields look like they aren't paired up correctly. The video created with X5 plays beautifully.

In X5 and X4 I shared to the same custom format:
.m2t
29.97 fps
upper field first
1920x1080
Turn off "Perform non-square pixel rendering"
Turn off "Smart Rendering"
Video Format=h.264
Compression Quality=100
Turn off AVCHD (so you can get 20000 kbps data rate).
Video Format=h.264
Video Data Rate=20000 kbps
Dolby 2, 384 kbps

[Flashclicker]

Thanks for the reply and yes - I downloaded the clip of Peter and followed the rules and uploaded it. You can see my rendered result here:

http://www.4shared.com/video/n0uKEUlv/P ... furl=d1url

Compared the first and the second part of that clip, the mpeg-optimizer line was also half-green and half-red like in the description. The result in that +2 brightness part looks as smooth as the untouched part, and this wonders me ... those typical interlaced lines disappeared on the touched clip. How this could happen ?

Also I´ve done a sample clip of Full HD progressive 50p material which causes no problems in rendering as I mentioned before AND it doesn´t matter if Hardware Acceleration is turned on or off - see here the example:

http://www.4shared.com/file/61D75yX7/Ma ... furl=d1url

So if I understand correct the Peter clip is just for checking out, if the rendering process based on Videostudio issues or the PC setting ?

[Kingston]

For Peter100,

I smart rendered your Original.mpg clip in both X5 and X4, then did a comparison of the two in another editor using a "difference" blending mode. There was no difference.

Then back in VS X5 and X4, I added a second instance of Original.mpg clip to the timeline and changed the brightness value, so it wouldn't be smart rendered. So for the first six seconds there should be smart rendering but not for the last six seconds. After sharing using Mpeg Optimizer, I compared the two files in another editor using the difference blending mode. There was no difference for the first 6 seconds, but for the last 6 seconds there was a difference between the two clips. As I said earlier in this thread, the X4 version has something wrong with it in the last 6 seconds.

[Peter100]

Hi Kingston,

Thanks for doing this experiment and sharing your results.

Peter

[Flashclicker]

Okay .... I found ONE solution for my problem, but I think this is not the sense of the corel videostudio pro x4 software. Also with this solution there is one problem left that really annoys me.

I´ve read, i.e. if you´re rendering a videoclip with the method "same as first videoclip" usually the software shouldn´t change everything on a non-touched original video, but it really does changes some slight things. Why ? Nobody knows. You can proof this by adding an original clip into the timeline without using any fx, filters, texts, etc. and rendering it "same as first videoclip" .

Then do compare both clips via MediInfo and you will see those slight differences. Smaller bitrate, smaller filesize. BUT if you compare both clips concerning picture quality in Media Players, you cannot see anything that changes as long as you have NOT used filters, fx, text, picture in picture etc.

So any change to the original file by filters, fx,transfers, etc. results in a worse picture rendering quality. If you have read my problem above, I also mentioned the video seems to stutter or have a lower framerate if an effect appears, a text or the use of a videofilter.

So I can give you the solution, to avoid this stuttering, but you will see the video itself has an even more worse rendering qualty. Just compare the two pictures below....

SOLUTION AVOID STUTTERING :

My original *.m2ts files are 1080/25i files from a Sony HDR-CX 130:

Start a project with the setings 1080/25 frames interlaced upper field first.

The solution is to render all your original clips without use of a filter, effect texts, etc. etc. - just put your original files into the timeline and add, change or cut NOTHING !!! But for the output process do NOT use "same as first video", select a pattern Corel Videostudio offers you ... i.e. BluRay-Disc 1920x1080i

Render this file ... it doesn´t matter if smart render is on or off, it doesn´t matter if smart proxy is enabled or not, it doesn't matter if hardware acceleration is used or not, so use the fast process you can choose.

Now work with this NEW rendered video file, keep up all the settings in the project or start a new project with the same settings. Now you can add effects, filters, texts, transfers between two clips, picture in picture and all the other things, that Corel Videostudio includes. Then if you wanna output use THE SAME output format as before. You will see, there are no more stutters or lower framerates in that new rendered video.

So it seems, Videostudio ProX4 can handle and work way better with a clip, when it was rendered before once in the programm itself. So you got smooth videoclips without stuttering, bit you have one issue left: The picture quality isn´t as good as the original Clips. Take a look at my comparison between the picture from the original clip and the picture from the rendered clip .... artefactsm fragments and bad colours - especially you can see those in fast movements and high detailed pictures wich is very sad.

Here are the comparison pictures !

Screenshot of the original video-file:
http://www.4shared.com/photo/3JlWHolv/f ... furl=d1url

Screenshot of the rendered video-file - setting: BluRay 1920x1080i
http://www.4shared.com/photo/kuuR0a65/f ... furl=d1url

SO if anyone can help me out to find a solution to keed the original video quality, I really would be happy ...

[Flashclicker]

Maybe somebody can answer this for me ???

Why is the xvid MPEG-4 Codec integrated into the *Avi Files Section of Videostudio ? Also if I install ffdshow, it only appears in the *Avi section of the program. If I render the video, its still AVI, But I don´t wanna render to AVI, I wanna render into *m2ts files or Mpeg-4 format i.e. ???

Also i.e if I use presets in xvid-mpeg4 or ffdshow all those setting were not resumed in videostudio.

Example:
I change the resolution in xvid configuration window via using profile "XVid HD720" and it shows, the video output will be 1280x720x30
Then I apply with "Ok" button and leave the xvid configuration. I´m back now in the 3 tab options that came with corel [Corel, Common and Avi]
The in the "Save video as" option corel show me it will render with the xvid codec, but NOT with the settings I´ve done in the settings configuration of the xvid codec itself, NO, it renders in this configuration that are set up in the "common" section of corel.

Or is there something I missed in the configuration of videostudio ???

So maybe it´s possible to get better picture quality using ffdshow, but as I mentioned before, I cannot handle this ... too many settings there.