mpeg frame rates...etc

[OldNick]

I work in PAL. I have to as my Vidcam is PAL. AFAICT there is no option. If I live in Oz I get a PAL camera.

So I want either 49-50 FPS (preferred) (the camera seems to do 49, although it says 50) or 24.xx-25 FPS.

However although I have set up VS as PAL, in many, many formats (wmv, avi, mpeg-4 etc) and codecs I get only 10,15,29.97,30, or other variants. I have tried many options and I am not that chuffed (flicker) but I can't try others because I am simply not given the choice.

Or I get one that gives me frame rates that suit, but I then cannot choose Frame Type, which I have seen make a difference in the result.

And nearly all of the options have a max bitrate of 2000. MY camera can run at in excess of 5000. Now maybe I do not understand the full implication's but I was under the impression that higher bitrate meant larger file size, but better quality.

What I need is to edit my camera's video, then get a result as good as the camera's. I can a good result by using Speedbit's right click converter, as it just follows all the settings from the camera, of Handbrake, which does the same thing, but neither of these edit.

I understand about making movie templates, but maybe I just need pointing to something I have missed, (or have my fears confirmed!)

So far I have not had one satisfactory result.

Thanks for any input

Nick

[lata]

Hi Nick

I don’t use High Definition video, still using the old tape DV-Avi

Can you give more details regarding your video files.
What make and type of camcorder?
Right click a clip in the timeline and select properties, what are they.?

If you wish using Alt+PrtSc you can copy/paste the window image to an Image editor, save as Jpeg and attach to your post.

Now tell us what you are intending to make………
A Standard DVD
A BluRay or AVCHD type disc.
Or a video for the internet.

Please confirm if your Video Studio program is installed using Pal or NTSC? Re-your other posts.

Frame Rate, I would opt for 25 fps, there is some issues using 50fps.
As I say I don’t use HD, but Ken lives on your side of the globe (NZ) so should be awake at the same time as you.

[skier-hughes]

What make and model is the camera?

[OldNick]

Thanks for the replies.

Camera is a Panasonic HD HS700. Attached is the image of the screen grab of properties.

VS is now installed as PAL.

At the moment I am simply aiming for a smaller file size than the camera's in a format that can be played in more PC programmes. Just trying to get max mpeg etc quality. Not yet trying for DVD or what have you.

Question. What issues are there with 50fps? I have heard hints, and then had it said there is no trouble, then....

Obviously for me, the main problem is that when I try to convert to 25fps for the above reasons, I get horrible flicker. however, that has happened to me trying to convert recorded TV, as well. So far, for me, any programme has caused flicker if it does not simply follow source frame rate.

Bit confused, so I hope I am answering your questions OK.

Nick

[lata]

Hi Nick

If you convert from 50 to 25 frames per second you will create flicker.

Your video clip has 600 frames and plays at 50 fps for 12 seconds.
If you simply change the Fps to 25 then in theory the video would play for 24 seconds.
However the encoder does not do that, it creates a video with a duration of 12 seconds how? By reducing the frames to 300. this deletes every alternate frame.
(Yes i suppose you are deleting 50% of your video)
Right click one of the converted files to view its properties, notice the Total Frames??????

However
You should be able to render your video file using 50 fps……you may not be able to set the data rate as 26000kbps, I think it is limited to 18000 and or 20000kbps??????

Make Movie Templates Manager
Using New, you should be able to create your own template to (“MPEG Transport-Stream Files mts )
Using 50 frames per second.

Try using the Add function, browse for your video file, if it is recognised then it will create a template to your settings.
-------------------------
With your video file in the timeline….
Share Create Video File, is Same as First Clip available, then it will also use your files settings.

-----------------------

Project Properties
You can set the project properties to display as 50 fps, at the moment it is using 25fps as default.
Settings Project Properties - Edit

PAL (25 fps)
Microsoft AVI files
8 bits, 1920 x 1080, 50 fps (type in these numbers)
Frame-based
Microsoft Video 1
Interleave audio for every 15 frames
15 Key frame rate:, 75% Quality
PCM, 32.000 kHz, 16 Bit, Stereo

As I said I don’t use High Definition so haven’t used these approaches……

If you do wish to burn a Standard DVD then you will be best to set the camera to record using 25 fps

[OldNick]

Thanks for the considered reply.

However, even if I remove half the frames from a 50fps video, I still have the standard 25fps. Why would it flicker?

Also, unfortunately I have now found that a 25fps video _from the camera_ plays fine...until I convert it to avi/mpg etc at 25 fps, when it flickers again

The camera does variable frame fate, could that be it?

I will try your exact settings and see what happens.

Nick

[OldNick]

Update. I just made a DVD from a 50FPS video using the bundled HD Writer software. It's perfect. I can set _nothing_ except DVD quality (from blu ray down to pretty poor.) I used the highest standard for a normal DVD player and the result is pretty good DVD play (not as sharp as them original, but pretty good), with really smooth output.

Has Panasonic created a monster?

The DVD VOB file video is 720*576 25fps 9000(!) KBPS.

Nick

[OldNick]

Ok Trevor (just saw your monikker )

I tried those settings for the project. I also tried various frame sizes in the hope of avoiding any issues with playback.I also tried 50fps, to avoid flicker because of dropper frames. It gives the same flicker on any frame size. If I choose "Source frame rate" in programmes that have that available, it seems to be the _only_ way to avoid the flicker.

Maybe we need to just amalgamate this and the out same as In thread, and avoid confusion? I know I know I started it !

I will start by asking. When you say "Use the same frame order" as the source, do you refer to "Frame Based" etc? If so that is what I have mostly been using.

Thanks to you all and I am sorry this is going on. I am really puzzled and doing my best.


the content is awful, but this was for demo purposes. One is from HandBrake set to follow source frame rate. The other is VS as you set, but with smaller frames for file size. HB's is flicker free.

This is NOT a put down, but I am starting to wonder if I should be asking Panasonic people about this. It does seem peculiar that their own (bloddy awrful) software can do this, although it only does a straight edit / export in PS's own format or DVD with no options. I can see being proprietary, but there is such a thing as disappointing......

[skier-hughes]

frame based gives you one whole picture each time, think of it like a frame on an old cine film, known as progressive "p" you'll get 50fps on progressive.

When talking of FIELD order, this is where each frame is split into two fields, the upper field and the lower field, each field is shown after each other, so you get all the upper fields then all the lower fields, think of the fields like blinds on a venetial blind, the slats are the upper field the gaps are the lower field. This is known as interlaced "i".
YOu'll get 25fps for PAL, but in those 25 frames 50 fields get shown.
If you reverse the order of the fields, so play the bottom before the top then this causes stuttering.
Showing an i video on a p (or p on an i) setup isn't as good as showing a p on a p or i on an i.

Now, if that hasn't confused you, I don't know what will!!

See my other explanation of choosing your output settings.

[OldNick]

No actually it does not confuse me. I have really learned something. Ok, Field order, not frame...d'Oh. This sounds like a real clue.

But how do I get this to work? As I say, I see a lot of this on commercial TV. So it appears there is trouble even among the pros. I have tried Frame Based (progressive right?) which _should_ match the progressive video from the camera. But I have also tried Lower First and Upper First (had no idea what it meant, but hey...) and nothing has worked.

And why is it that I can repeatably produce good output, regardless of other settings, if I choose to follow the frame rate of the input?

Nick

[OldNick]

OK. I have achieved flicker-free results.

I HAVE to use Source for the frame rate.

I HAVE to use ffmpeg as the codec.

If I do these two things, I get flicker-free video out in all formats and frame sizes etc.

Can I do this in VS?

Thanks for any help

Nick

[lata]

OK. I have achieved flicker-free results.

I HAVE to use Source for the frame rate. Yes I mentioned this in my reply after seeing your video properties

I HAVE to use ffmpeg as the codec.

If I do these two things, I get flicker-free video out in all formats and frame sizes etc.

Can I do this in VS? did you try to make your own templates or use the Custom option.

Thanks for any help

Nick

Have you read the reply to your other post from Ken Berry regarding working with 50p Output as for input?

[OldNick]

OK. I have achieved flicker-free results.
I HAVE to use Source for the frame rate. Yes I mentioned this in my reply after seeing your video properties
I HAVE to use ffmpeg as the codec.
If I do these two things, I get flicker-free video out in all formats and frame sizes etc.
Can I do this in VS? did you try to make your own templates or use the Custom option.
Thanks for any help
Nick

Have you read the reply to your other post from Ken Berry regarding working with 50p Output as for input?

Thanks for the reply.

You and Ken are talking about 50fps. That's the rub. Source and 50fps give different results in every programme that I try....if ffmpeg is the codec package. Without ffmpeg, even if I use Source, I still get the same flicker. And the weird thing is I have done both avi and mpeg-4, and tried a couple of codecs, and they are all smooth under ffmpeg.

I also mentioned variable frame rate. Weirdly, while the camera reports 50fps, and everybody says there are no variable frame rate consumer cameras out there, when I do a conversion with ffmpeg and Source as the frame rate, mediaInfo reports 48 fps to 50 (49.776) fps depending on what has happened and where. it also shows maximum and minimum frame rates that are very varied in some circumstances. So _something_ is causing those variables....and it also works.

I have made many templates (make movie not proxy) and I cannot anywhere see the option to use Source as the frame rate, or to use ffmpeg as the codec package. I have seen a heap of different ones: ulead Better and best, Neptune Better and Best etc and played with all their settings.

Can I somehow add codec packs? Or am I wrong and ffmpeg is there.

Can I _specifically ask for Source Frame Rate, as distinct from what _looks_ like 50fps.

So far I just know it works and I have tried everything I can think of or have had suggested AFAIK.

Nick

[lata]

Hi Nick

There seems to be some confusion regarding the word “Variable”
Variable is associated with the Bit Rate aka Data Rate the other option being Constant.
The Data Rate is the amount of memory used in Kbps to create the frames, your camera uses a variable bit rate of 26000kbps.

The Frame Rate is the number of frames displayed in one second, you can set the camera to record using 50 or 25 fps
You are using 50, if you intend to create a Bluray then you can use 50, if you intend to create a standard DVD then you should use 25fps.

You can create a Movie Manager Template similar to your original properties.
Do This

1 / Click Settings-Make Movie Templates Manager
2 / Click NEW
3 / File Format—choose MPEG Transport-Stream Files
4 / Give the template a name
5 / Click the Compression Tab
6 / Media Type as Pal HDMV
7 / Video Format to H.264 Video
8 / Tick Two-Pass Encode
9 / Video Data Rate—20000 is the maximum using VS.
10 / Audio settings—set these to match your original, that is 3/2 (L,CR,SL,SR)
11 / Click the General Tab
12 / Frame Rate to 50 frames / second
13 / Frame Type to Frame Based
14 / Frame Size—select 1920 x 1080

The template will be available to use from Share Create Video File—to the bottom of the list.

The final template will look like this:-
MPEG Transport-Stream Files
24 bits, 1920 x 1080, 50 fps
Frame-based
(HDMV-PAL), 16:9
H.264 Video
Video data rate: Variable (Max. 20000 kbps)
Audio data rate: 384 kbps
Dolby Digital Audio, 48 KHz, 3/2(L,C,R,SL,SR)


Codec Packs
We do not recommend that you install any codec packs, all codecs that you need should be supplied with your software installations.
I do not have the ffmpeg codec that you refer to, so cannot help you with this product/codec.

Nick

What are you trying to create?
Graham mentioned in one of his replies to set the camera to record using appropriate settings depending on what you are intending to create.
If you are going to create a Standard DVD then you should record using 25 fps.

You Tube
If you are intending to create video for uploading to you tube then they prefer:-

Quote:-
Frame rates should match the source material. For example, content shot in 24fps should be encoded and uploaded at 24fps. Content recorded at 30fps should be uploaded at 30fps.

Frame rate of 30 is preferred. 23.98, 24, 25, 29.97 are also acceptable.
All interlaced video should be converted to the corresponding progressive frame rate. For example, content at 1080i 60, should be deinterlaced, going from 60 interlaced fields per second to 30 progressive frames per second before uploading.
Unquote:-

[OldNick]

No. The confusion I am seeing is about Frame rate vs Bit Rate. And about setting the frame rate vs matching the frame rate.

Frame rate. If the input "frame rate' is 50, and the output rate is 50, that is not working for me. I need to actually use the Source FR as the output FR.

The original video presents 50fps to mediaInfo. The created videos that WORK present _frame_ RATES that vary. No other conversion will give me a non-flicker result.