ASP from the perspective of long-time PaintShop Pro users

[afx]

So you guys are saying that I right clicked one file, hovered over the wrong thing and clicked, and now the whole program is screwed up? This really does not instill confidence.

You seem to misunderstand a lot here...

AS does not babysit the user.
It has a bit of a learning curve, but the end result is a significantly faster workflow.
Using the online videos helps quite a bit.
And instead of complaining that things do not work in the way you think they should, ask how to get to specific results (and ask for complete steps if this is something you feel unsure about...).
Often enough there will be a a much better way then the one you had envisioned and failed with.

Your comments about defaults and Presets show that you still have a problem understanding the concept behind it while at the same time running into actual limitations of the program (their write only nature and lack of layer support).
The defaults are only useful for stuff that you want to have always and ever applied to all the files they are applicable to. That is usually very little, like different autolevel thresholds, crop and NN defaults, sharpening, copyright.
And while they are the same if you look at it at file level, defaults and presets are logically quite different, as presets help you to apply settings that you often need, like a metadata blob or sharpening and noise reduction settings for reoccurring shooting situations. As presets can be applied at import, you can set up very specific types of import queues that effectively provide queue specific defaults, so you don't even need to apply presets manually for reoccurring job types.

cheers
afx

[df]

Sooooo turning on Noise Ninja and making that a preset is ok, just so long as I'm a previous Bibble user. As a previous PSP user I've broken the program and need to take my lumps. Do I have this correct? Because that's all I did.

[maggus]

There's a lot of confusion here on this forum over the expectations of AfterShot Pro from PaintShop Pro users vs. expectations of former Bibble users who are transitioning to the Corel version, ASP.
.....
As for me, I'll continue to use ACDSee Pro 5 for my DAM until I see the changes Corel makes in AfterShot Pro. I have a large hard drive!

Let the Bibble Babble begin.

Bob

Hi Bob,

for me ASP (in the current version) is simply the successor of B5.2.3, not more, not less.
And I guess it is not aimed to replace PSP (and the reverse does not make sense ... why to buy a product which you wont continue ?) because their target are really different (as others already explained).
So I really don´t know which type of discussion you want to start ?

Before Bibble I only used open source tools for RAW processing, but starting with my new CAM I had to update them ... and unfortunately they were in some kind of transition ... not stable, slow, etc. Thus I decided for Bibble for two main reasons:
(1) supported on Linux !
(2) speed compared to other RAW converter products (free an commercial)

Besides Bibble/ASP I still use GIMP for pixel-editing ... and I think this will not change since PSP is linked with Windows .... no option for me !
If there would be a Linux version for low budget ... maybe I would go for it.

But to be honest, since using Bibble/ASP the GIMP on my machine feels really bored, not used often.
Of course, ASP is not yet perfect regarding some layer stuff, but I´m sure (I hope) that Corel will touch this sooner or later.

And DAM .... did not use it until now .... don´t really need it .... but will do some trials. At least it can be used in parallel of my old fashioned folder-structure-with-dates-and-topics manuel-DAM.

cheers
Markus

[afx]

Sooooo turning on Noise Ninja and making that a preset is ok, just so long as I'm a previous Bibble user. As a previous PSP user I've broken the program and need to take my lumps. Do I have this correct? Because that's all I did.

Are playing dumb on purpose?

cheers
afx

[Tadjio]

I am a long-time PaintShop Pro user, starting with version 1.01 in 1992 (which still works on my PC), through to versions 7,8 and 9 under JASC and then X to X4 under Corel, when my use increased after I switched to a digital camera. PSP has been described as a Pixel Editor but rather than a pixel pusher I am a photo editor. On the whole I do not use many of the pure Graphics features and Vectors.

About 5 years ago I started using RAW and considered several RAW Converters, including Bibble, but settled on Canon's Digital Photo Professional (DPP). At the same time Corel introduced a RAW Conversion process into PSP but I always found it terrible.

Likewise, Corel also introduced various forms of Organizer and eventually Mange Mode into PSP, based around a SQLite database but again I found these un-usable in practice, especially with my 50,000+ Images which I keep organized in a tight folder structure on a separate hard disk.

So, when Corel invited me to join the Beta Trial of AfterShot Pro, I was very interested in this alternative approach to RAW Conversion and Digital Asset Management. Apart from some early issues with Canon RAW Exposure which Corel resolved for me, I quickly found the RAW Conversion successful, including my Olympus 4/3 Micro.

Regarding the "DAM" it has taken a lot longer to grasp the concept of File System versus Library Catalogs. I started by using the File System but once I had grasped that the History of changes is retained between ASP sessions, I began to use the Catalog more. There seems to be several minor differences between the two approaches, for example that you cannot "open in file manager" from File System whereas you can from Catalog. Using the File System alone in ASP works fine but I am disappointed in the Library Catalog which seems to be a confusing extension of the same (apart from the retention of History and Metadata searches). I understand that several Bibble features have been dropped from the Library Catalog. Can they be reinstated? In particular I would like to be able to define and name the folder structure in the Catalog, rather than having a lot of useless multiple levels to get to my images.

I find navigation around the File System is a little primitive - e.g. no back/forward arrows between folders used and even more confusing when you Import to Catalog (and then can't jump to it). I am also still a little confused about Versions and Image Naming/Renaming, especially with Output Files not in the Catalog. Enough for now except to say I don't find it user friendly and often revert to Canon's ZoomBrowser and Windows Explorer.

Having covered RAW and DAM, this brings us to Photo Editing, which is the province of PSP. I have been extremely impressed with ASP, especially once I found that third-party plugins literally plugged the gaps where native ASP is lacking, for example Perspective Correction with zPerspector. The non-destructive nature of editing (within an ASP session) including Plugins is a delight compared with the (selective) undoing and redoing of History in PSP. To be able to go back and adjust something like a major Crop well afterwards is great. I don't pretend to understand the implications of the 'pipeline' but I have watched the effect when radically changing a crop and seeing the result on the Histogram.

I now have less and less reason to call PSP as an External Editor as I get to learn how to do the same things in ASP, including Clone and zText. I think we are now down to the next level of detailed comparison. On the surface Crop, Straighten, Layers, Regions, Click White are available in both, as are Histogram, Basic Adjustments, Presets, Curves, Colour etc. So it is down to how effective they are, for example in handling Highlights or conditional Scripts versus simple Presets. I do like the "Exposure" control, which has no direct equivalence in PSP.

PSP still has its place as a "Paint Shop" program and is more powerful for doing "arty-farty" or creative post processing of images (although there are many plugins I haven't explored). PSP's user interface is very hard to get to grips with, mainly because it is older and covers more individual features but with experience and tailoring of menus, toolbars, palettes and bound scripts, it is very practical. By contrast ASP is a little difficult to start with but is more limited and so can be learnt faster. I would like more user configuration as we have in PSP, starting with the Tools Panel, but also allowing me to place all Panels (Palettes) on my second monitor, as I have done with PSP, leaving my primary monitor just for the primary image I am working on.

Thank you for reading this far, if you have done so! From the perspective of a long-time PaintShop Pro user I think ASP has many merits and I have now committed to using it for my day-to-day photo processing. I am sure ASP will improve in the next versions, given its pedigree, but in particular in fine-tuning the handling (for me) of RAW+JPG from my Canon camera using Picture Styles and in the overall 'asset management' of my images, many of which are output JPEGs, as well as RAW, TIFFs and PSPImages.

[DocBrown]

Hi,

I think important in this discussion to look at Aftershot Pro and PSP from a product management perspective and more specifically which market is it targetted at. Aftershot Pro is positioned by Corel as photo management software supporting a complete raw workflow offering flexible photo management and non destructive editing. Summarised Aftershot Pro targets the same audience as Aperture and Lightroom. PSP is more targeted as Photoshop competitor. Of these competitors only Lightroom offers a complete DAM ( although I am not sure whether it is able to catalogue all image file types). Bibble introduced DAM functionality in B5 as response to the introduction of Lightroom and Aperture, but certainly does not have a full flexed DAM.

I agree 95%. I don't particularly care for Adobe's approach to DAM, and as such, I can't call it "complete".

A good comparison of DAM software can be found at http://www.impulseadventure.com/photo/f ... mpare.html and for the people now using ACDSEE Pro; no that is not really a DAM but also an image editor with added cataloguing features . Real DAMs are products like Cumulus, IMatch and IDImager.

The only "real" DAM is one that works for you. Every so many years I download all the trials and play around. I always go back to ACDSee, which BTW, was doing DAM long before integrating editing and RAW conversion features. iMatch and IDImager are fine products but I personally find them very clunky and non-intuative. According to your link Cumulus doesn't support RAW files without an add on. Not cool IMHO. And their web site is horrible to navigate. Opinions are a wonderful thing. Like noses, we all have them. And of course we're always right and everyone else is wrong.

From an end-user perpective it would be ideal if there would be a DAM frame work in which we could use both a raw developer and an an image editor to our liking , but that does not make sense for large company's like corel and or adobe who want to sell their own products and just because the overall product would the perfect complete solution. The problem with perfect complete solutions is that it is difficult to sell to users who have a specific need to address. one might argue that PSP or Photoshop are the perfect complete solutions but in my view these are over complex monsters that are not suited for my photographic needs and more targeted towards designers and advertising people then photographers.

It will be interesting to see how Aftershot Pro will develop over time , but as stated earlier it is positioned towards Lightroom and Aperture , so for PSP users i would say do not set your hopes in that respect too high. Adobe also does not offer full image editing capability's in Lightroom because then it would be cannibalising on photoshop.

Well put. Which is why I use several editors and tools to accomplish my end goals. I don't think you will ever see a "one size fits all" program that works well for everyone.

As an old Bibble user I think that the ex-bibble users are very helpful on these forums but some of them tend to be rather religious in their views

Not so much religious as trying to understand why some PSP users seem to think that ASP is/should be a replacement to PSP and have all the same tools and features. ASP is essentially a mild facelift of software acquired from another company. To expect that it "fit in" with the rest of the Corel "family" at this early stage seems a bit unrealistic. Not to mention that its purpose/target market, as you stated above, is different from PSP. So I suppose some ex-bibble users are trying to educate? From a workflow stand point, PSP is a compliment to ASP and edit made in PSP come after the RAW conversion. IMO, the "Open in External Editor" is much more suited to TIFF and JPGs. Which in a standard work flow are the output of the RAW conversion.

[DocBrown]

Thank you for reading this far, if you have done so! From the perspective of a long-time PaintShop Pro user I think ASP has many merits and I have now committed to using it for my day-to-day photo processing. I am sure ASP will improve in the next versions, given its pedigree, but in particular in fine-tuning the handling (for me) of RAW+JPG from my Canon camera using Picture Styles and in the overall 'asset management' of my images, many of which are output JPEGs, as well as RAW, TIFFs and PSPImages.

I appreciate all the time you have taken to learn ASP and sharing your experiences. It sounds like you are finding how and where ASP fits into your workflow. Those of us who have been long time Bibble users are also looking forward to upcoming versions of ASP. I have high hopes that many of the promised features of the original release of Bibble 5.0 will become reality now that Corel is financially backing the product.

[Tadjio]

I appreciate all the time you have taken to learn ASP and sharing your experiences.
Those of us who have been long time Bibble users are also looking forward to upcoming versions of ASP. I have high hopes that many of the promised features of the original release of Bibble 5.0 will become reality now that Corel is financially backing the product.

Thanks. I would be interested to see what the major 'promised features' are.

[darKing]

Sooooo turning on Noise Ninja and making that a preset is ok, just so long as I'm a previous Bibble user. As a previous PSP user I've broken the program and need to take my lumps. Do I have this correct? Because that's all I did.

huh?! I don't get this.

Another thing to your posts:

One I thing I really like (sarcasm) are people that use a specific program for some time and "know" their programm well, because *they learned how to use it*. Now another prog comes their way. They won't read the manual, but claim that it's not "intuitive" because it doesn't work like the program they used before. Way to go!
I used PSP back in the Jasc Days and also tried some Corel Versions. I liked it... then I tried PS and guess what. It did not feel like PSP. I had to learn new stuff. So I assume PS must be a really s**** programm, I wonder how few use this one.

Trying to figure out how to make an output batch go to a location is a test of mental stability.

Jeez... Maybe it's just not for you. You can edit every output batch (or make new ones). With every Batch you can choose if ASP should a) output to a specific dest. (aka never ask) b) ask one time per. Session / ASP Start c) ask every time

Test of mental stability? Give me a break...


Beside that. I think Corel will tweak the UI and the "workflow" to match the "Corel way" a bit more. This is the first Version of a programm which used to be Bibble... you can't change everything with one Release.

[DocBrown]

I appreciate all the time you have taken to learn ASP and sharing your experiences.
Those of us who have been long time Bibble users are also looking forward to upcoming versions of ASP. I have high hopes that many of the promised features of the original release of Bibble 5.0 will become reality now that Corel is financially backing the product.

Thanks. I would be interested to see what the major 'promised features' are.

I'm not sure you could call them major, except for the need to make the DAM a real one! Too many missing things in the DAM part to even list here. But there was a few "little" things that would just make it so much easier to use. Customizable tool tabs. Which we do have now, but its not yet an "official" feature. Its easy enough to setup, but still lacks a GUI like B4 had. An automatic refresh and import is another. Say I have a folder that I add photos too. If that folder is already part of a catalog, an automatic refresh and import of those new photos would be nice. While this feature wasn't officially promised, at least one of the programers said several times in the forums that it was being worked on. Integration with the popular photo sharing sites. It can be done with some sites via Batch Output. but I find that a cludgy solution and it doesn't work with SmugMug anyway. Other DAMs have much more elegant solutions that work out of the box. File information in the Metadata tab. In part this is a DAM feature, but there are times when I'm processing something, and I want to see what the file size is, and what the embedded color profile is. And we still don't have true soft proofing where I can compare side by side the version with the printer .icc profile against one without it. Its one or the other. Just a few...

[Tadjio]

[I would be interested to see what the major 'promised features' are.

I'm not sure you could call them major, except for the need to make the DAM a real one! Too many missing things in the DAM part to even list here. But there was a few "little" things that would just make it so much easier to use.

Thanks. Food for thought and grist to the mill...

[B4b5]

So you guys are saying that I right clicked one file, hovered over the wrong thing and clicked, and now the whole program is screwed up? This really does not instill confidence.

Hi df;

Appearently, they too are unaware of how to get back to what I have called a "Virgin" rendering of your RAW file.

Please do it as I suggested:

1. Get DefaultRaw.xmp back to its original condition as supplied by Corel.

2. Get a Preset that gets you all the way back to that Virgin rendering.
If you like rolling your own, or just want to understand the step to creating a B4b5_ResetAlmostEverything.xmp
as well as the reason why I say "AlmostEverything" get the instructions here-> viewtopic.php?f=90&t=45276&p=239972#p239972
If you just want to see it work; I've included a 7zip file of the B4b5_ResetAlmostEverything.xmp which should work right out of the box.

3. Make sure B4b5_ResetAlmostEverything.xmp is in your user Presets directory, so you can find it inside ASP.

4. Render a new Raw image from scratch.

5. Start playing with any and all settings that you are curious about.

If you create a goofy looking image and can't figure out what to change to make nicer results, just click on B4b5_ResetAlmostEverything.xmp
and prest-o change-o you're back to your Virgin rendering.

You will soon learn that it is IMPOSSIBLE to damage your original RAW file from within ASP. Once you convince yourself of that fact you will
realize that Bibble/ASP is an extremely simple UI with zillions of controls that you can turn on off or adjust at will; and never damage your file.

Have fun!

[Tadjio]

Have fun!

Henry, I can't cope with .7z in Windows. Please can you attach it as a zip file? Ta.

[B4b5]

Henry, I can't cope with .7z in Windows. Please can you attach it as a zip file? Ta.

I think this is the one you want...

[Tadjio]

I think this is the one you want...

Gr8. Ta.