ASP from the perspective of long-time PaintShop Pro users

[OldRadioGuy]

There's a lot of confusion here on this forum over the expectations of AfterShot Pro from PaintShop Pro users vs. expectations of former Bibble users who are transitioning to the Corel version, ASP.

First, let me commend Tadjio for enduring the stones and arrows of the Bibble community in his attempt here to acquire information about ASP and at the same time communicate the point that the needs of PSP users may be different.

Corel has been marketing AfterShot Pro as an extremely fast, non-destructive photo editor and a digital asset manager. The targets of the application are professional photographers who need to shoot and turn around their product for a client as quickly as possible and "enthusiast" photographers who have a need to catalog their pictures for quick access because they may come back to many images often.

By making PSP the default external editor, Corel intends to sell a lot of copies of ASP to current PSP users and bring some new customers to PaintShop Pro, too. The problem is AfterShot Pro does not meet the needs of most of the PSP community, in my opinion.

I doubt more than a small percentage of professional photographers are using PaintShop Pro. Most PSP users fall into the category of serious amateur, amateur or enthusiast. Many of us have been with PSP since its early years in the 1990s, and we have learned to use it for many purposes -- editing photos we shoot, creating images for use on the web, creation of photo objects, making composites of multiple images, editing scanned images, cleanup of old photographs, etc.

Over the years, PSP added layers, scripting for macros and other features which made it more powerful. We can customize by changing icons, toolbars and workspace arrangements. We're partial to the PSP Blemish Fixer, which is much better and easier to use than the ASP Healing Brush. (The ASP designers should take a look at that tool.) At least a few of us have become very skilled using PSP.

Among the external tools we use are plugins. For the Bibble world out there, there are plugins other than Bibble plugins. The PSP plugins are 8bf Photoshop plugins, which will run in any well-designed photo editor. And, yes, we do understand when the 8bf plugins are run via some external source in ASP the edit being performed is a destructive edit.

That's a significant part of the dilemma facing PSP users.

In my opinion, until ASP is changed to allow 8bf plugins to work internally and non-destructively in ASP, until there's a more efficient way to get files into an ASP catalog, and until ASP solves the slow startup problem with cache cleaning as the result of thousands of images added to a catalog, ASP is of little value to most users of PaintShop Pro.

As for me, I'll continue to use ACDSee Pro 5 for my DAM until I see the changes Corel makes in AfterShot Pro. I have a large hard drive!

Let the Bibble Babble begin.

Bob

[bananahead]

I have been a PSP user for longer than I have been a ASP (Bibble) user.

PSP is a pixel editor.

ASP is a RAW converter.

Both products have added other functionality over the years and there is an overlap. PSP has a very basic RAW converter and ASP will work with some pixels.

Both products are complimentary. They are not supposed to be interchangable. Almost all of my converted RAWs have some form of PSP applied afterwards.


And ASP starts about five times as fast as PSP. I have about 50 000 images in my catalogs.

[darKing]

For me, ASP is a RAW Editor / Converter. (I think "non-destructive photo edito" doesn't describe ASP) I use it well before I even think of PSP (or PS). I don't use the DAM / Catalouge Feature anymore. I used it in B5 but it never brought me any benefit over my old worklow (sorting my pictures in folders). So with ASP im back with folders again.

I enjoy editing my RAW files. I don't wan't to import my RAW files to PSP with very basic settings and then edit the imported jpg or tiffs from there. I wan't to "edit" the real RAWs. fullstop

The only time is use(d) PSP is for stuff like Beatuy / Skin retouch.

[bobbert]

I too am a long time PSP (now X4) user. ASP is a terrific RAW editor. PSP is a terrific layers editor. The problem is that ASP is not a digital asset manager. It does nor even "see" PSPIMAGE files. So I still need a DAM in addition to all this.

So I too use ACDSee as both a RAW editor and DAM, and "call' PSP from its 'external editors menu'. ACDSee can read PSPIMAGE files, 16 bit ones at least, so it is really useful, and the cataloging and viewing functions are second to none IMHO.

I suspect (hope) that ASP will acquire this sort of functionality as Corel spiffs it up. Until then I'm staying with what I have and removing the trial of ASP for now. I'll keep my eyes open though because a truly integrated ASP/PSP would be wonderful, and I'm willing to pay for it.

Looking forward to the future

[DocBrown]

Good post Bob. One thing I fully agree with is that ASP is a poor DAM. I've been an ACDSee user since version 7. I tried to use Bibble 5 for DAM for one full year and finally just gave up and went back to ACDSee Pro. For RAW, ACDSee has come a long way, but I think that ASP/Bibble is far better than ACDSee. I only use the catalogs in ASP to create work queues which work very well for my needs.

People want one software to do it all. I personally don't believe that exists, or will ever. I can do 90% - 95% of my post processing with ASP. My workflow has never been based on the assumption that I can do it all in any one tool. I don't really care if 8bf Photoshop plugins work in ASP, mostly because aside from recent versions of LightRoom, 8bf plugins don't work in any RAW conversion tools anyway. What I care about is that the tools I need are available SOMEWHERE.

Here's my basic workflow. I bring new RAW photos into ASP in a catalog named for the shoot (often place and date). I rate and color code them based on my personal system. Then I precess the "keepers" with all the tools available in ASP. Next, export to 16 bit TIFF. Depending on what final cleanup and edits are needed, I may use ACDSee Pro or PhotoShop to edit those TIFF files. Then if needed I run them through Neat Image to clean up noise and give them a final sharpening. I then convert the final TIFFs into either 100% or 95% JPGs depending on their intended use (100% for framed prints, 95% for everything else). Last, I move them into their final "home" folder in ADCSee, apply keywords and database attributes to them.

Anywhere in my workflow I could substitute other software that is capable of doing the job (except perhaps for ACDSee Pro). Instead of PhotoShop, I could use PSP or the GIMP (if it supported 16 bit files that is). Instead of ASP, I could use DPP or Capture 1. Here lies my point: I think its not the fact that ASP doesn't meet PSP user expectations, I think that PSP users may not know how and where it fits into their work flow. If it does at all. If one just shoots JPGs, then ASP is just a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. If one shoots only RAW and is used to PhotoShop to do the "pixel editing", then PSP may not cut it (PSP lacks soft proofing, which is why I'm still using PS CS2). And of course, as I said above, ASP has a way to go before it can be considered a serious DAM. When that happens, then PSP users may have more of a use for it.

[bengelenburg]

Hi,

I think important in this discussion to look at Aftershot Pro and PSP from a product management perspective and more specifically which market is it targetted at. Aftershot Pro is positioned by Corel as photo management software supporting a complete raw workflow offering flexible photo management and non destructive editing. Summarised Aftershot Pro targets the same audience as Aperture and Lightroom. PSP is more targeted as Photoshop competitor. Of these competitors only Lightroom offers a complete DAM ( although I am not sure whether it is able to catalogue all image file types). Bibble introduced DAM functionality in B5 as response to the introduction of Lightroom and Aperture, but certainly does not have a full flexed DAM. A good comparison of DAM software can be found at http://www.impulseadventure.com/photo/f ... mpare.html and for the people now using ACDSEE Pro; no that is not really a DAM but also an image editor with added cataloguing features . Real DAMs are products like Cumulus, IMatch and IDImager.

From an end-user perpective it would be ideal if there would be a DAM frame work in which we could use both a raw developer and an an image editor to our liking , but that does not make sense for large company's like corel and or adobe who want to sell their own products and just because the overall product would the perfect complete solution. The problem with perfect complete solutions is that it is difficult to sell to users who have a specific need to address. one might argue that PSP or Photoshop are the perfect complete solutions but in my view these are over complex monsters that are not suited for my photographic needs and more targeted towards designers and advertising people then photographers.

It will be interesting to see how Aftershot Pro will develop over time , but as stated earlier it is positioned towards Lightroom and Aperture , so for PSP users i would say do not set your hopes in that respect too high. Adobe also does not offer full image editing capability's in Lightroom because then it would be cannibalising on photoshop.

I can imagine that Corel would decide to include a light Aftershot Pro version in PSP and drop the current one , or even decides to drop raw processing capabilities from PSP altogether but that is just speculating and can only be answered by Corel product management. If anybody from Corel is listening on these conversations , is there a product roadmap that you want to share with us ?

As an old Bibble user I think that the ex-bibble users are very helpful on these forums but some of them tend to be rather religious in their views

Just my 2cts.
Bert

[B4b5]

Let the Bibble Babble begin.

Bob

It feels odd being here at Corel:

I do use other bits of software from time to time, but I must say that after years of using Bibble/ASP
I can do anything I want to do using ASP...

Here's the rub; Corel has introduced me to PSP.

Now I can do everything I don't want to do using PSP...

I say it tongue in cheek because I really like my new PSP as a Post processing tool.
I expect with a few years of PSP experience I might at least gain a better understanding of all those things that I don't want to do...

[df]

For me there's just so many aspects of this program that are either backwards, unintuitive, or just plain doesn't do anything that you thought it would do. I'm sure the Bibble people are saying the same things about PSP.

For example, I'm really really REALLY trying to use this program. It's incredibly time consuming and I'm on a time crunch to try to learn something that isn't anything like you've used before. If it weren't for Noise Ninja I would have given up on it already. In fact I'm still not sure if I'll keep it. I finally figured out how to make a default, which you'd think if you're looking at Default Settings in the Preferences from the File menu that you'd be able to check and uncheck those little boxes. Apparently not, and you need to right click an image with your adjustments, hover over Settings, then click Save As RAW Setting. Now these two things aren't even named similarly. Yet you just have to know one from the other, and most things you'd expect to be in the right click menu aren't there. Now I read that Noise Ninja sucks in ASP for some reason or another, making me rethink keeping it even more.

I guess I should read the manual, but that's about worthless. Trying to figure out how to make an output batch go to a location is a test of mental stability. From the manual it tells you to drag thumbnails to the batch name that you want to batch, but it makes absolutely no mention of where those files will go. The program used to ask, now it doesn't. And now I'm even further behind. I did see mention of the output tab, but without an actual screen shot I've now got to search gray on gray to find the tab. Oh there it is. Right click the batch I finally want to do something with and it's not just File Name, Quality, and things that every other editor I've ever used has, it's got both Destination and "Output Name and Location", under destination it has Ask checked, but it never asked me after a certain point. Under location it's got tons of irrelevant crap that make no sense. Ah, I finally see it, "Only Prompt Once" is checked for some reason. Funny since this is the first time I've been to this page.

I guess my point is that the tools themselves look to be great, although many are the same or similar to what is in or can be done in PSP, but the UI just really stinks.
edit: and I'm sure for others the UI in PSP is the worst ever imagined. personal preference type thing.

[B4b5]

I guess my point is that the tools themselves look to be great, although many are the same or similar to what is in or can be done in PSP, but the UI just really stinks.
edit: and I'm sure for others the UI in PSP is the worst ever imagined. personal preference type thing.

Don't give up df. We need some well versed PSP users in the ASP fold to help us figure out how to get the extra mileage out of PSP.

Going to your initial comments about DefaultRaw I feel like you're on the wrong track. Unless you have some unusual need, or some settings
that you must have the same way every time you load a new image, DefaultRaw.xmp should be the very simple original file that Corel supplied with ASP.

The way you're setting the Default is introducing dozens if not hundreds of often contradictory setting that shouldn't be in the Default, and fixing it will blow your mind!
Don't ask why they designed it that way - the real question is why they describe it as they do? That is the really quirky part of Bibble/ASP.

If you have one or three simple things to do every time, I can help you get them into the default and understand how to change them in the future.
All of the other things that you may want many times but not every single time belongs in various Presets.

Your Post raises so many question/complaints that it's too much to address in one go, and I don't think any of it will go well until DefaultRaw is right.

For now please start by transplanting a fresh copy of Corel's DefaultRaw.xmp into you user file located at:
C:\Users\your name\AppData\Local\Corel\AfterShot Pro\defaults\DefaultRaw.xmp

Then feed ASP a new RAW file or delete the sidecar.xmp from one of your test images. Then restart ASP and view the results.

Do you like what you see? Is something missing that must be there every time? If anything is missing it's fairly simple to add it without screwing-up
the entire DefaultRaw.xmp... and no, I don't think ASP documentation covers it.

Here's a clue. The original DefaultRaw.xmp can be found at:
C:\Program Files (x86)\Corel\Corel AfterShot Pro\supportfiles\defaults\defaults\DefaultRaw.xmp

Here's another clue. For the future it might be helpful if you get a free copy of WinMerge from http://portableapps.com/apps

How do you like the results so far?

[df]

Your Post raises so many question/complaints that it's too much to address in one go, and I don't think any of it will go well until DefaultRaw is right.

It's funny, the default thing is the very last thing I've tried to do. And the only reason I tried it was because I've seen talk of "oh, that's easy, just make it a preset". And this is the only preset I see you can do anything with. Do you see how this is backwards? The only thing you CAN change is the only thing you should NEVER change.

I've reset the Raw default.

[B4b5]

Your Post raises so many question/complaints that it's too much to address in one go, and I don't think any of it will go well until DefaultRaw is right.

It's funny, the default thing is the very last thing I've tried to do. And the only reason I tried it was because I've seen talk of "oh, that's easy, just make it a preset". And this is the only preset I see you can do anything with. Do you see how this is backwards? The only thing you CAN change is the only thing you should NEVER change.

I've reset the Raw default.

Next you'll need a way to get back to the "virgin" rendering of that RAW file, so that you can play with settings
to your heart's content without losing your way all the way back with no big effort. For that you need a Preset like "ResetEverything"

Sadly, and in the long tradition of Bibble/ASP documentation the prepackaged "ResetEverything" isn't setup correctly - you'll need to make your own;
it's easy and I've attempted to give full instructions in this Post-> http://forum.corel.com/EN/viewtopic.php ... 72#p239972

After you have DefaultRaw and ResetEverything working correctly you can play with settings until you're lost; then just start over. Makes experimenting fun.

As long as you remember never again to click a button to save a DefaultRaw or DefaultRendered, things will start looking better to you.

By the time you're tired of playing with experiments you'll probably have answered some of your own questions and developed some new ones.

But take it one thing at a time - On to "ResetEverything"...

[thufor]

After you have DefaultRaw and ResetEverything working correctly you can play with settings until you're lost; then just start over. Makes experimenting fun.

As long as you remember never again to click a button to save a DefaultRaw or DefaultRendered, things will start looking better to you.

By the time you're tired of playing with experiments you'll probably have answered some of your own questions and developed some new ones.

But take it one thing at a time - On to "ResetEverything"...

Forget "ResetEverything" -- this doesn't return to your Default Settings but applies whatever is in that preset. Use "Ctrl+R" (equivalent to right-clicking on a thumbnail -> Settings -> Apply Default Settings). This is The Right Way(tm) to reset your changes :-)

[df]

So you guys are saying that I right clicked one file, hovered over the wrong thing and clicked, and now the whole program is screwed up? This really does not instill confidence.

[brucet]

As I see it ASP and PSP are both tools. A spade is a tool and so is a shovel. You can dig a hole with both. But one lends itself better to one task than the other does.

For me ASP handles all my RAW work. Gives me an excellent final file to 'play' with in PSP. In PSP I go to town with the 'creative' stuff. I think anyone waiting for a 'one program to do everything' will be waiting a long long time. I guess that Corel is targeting the 'middle' ground with both products rather than trying to take on Adobe which is entrenched at the top of the pile.

I would rather have a number of specialist tools in my tool box than one tool that falls short in some departments.

[SteveCase]

I use ASP for RAW conversion and some of the plugins. zFrame and zText most of the time. Wavelet denoise in place of NN.

Bibble/ASP greatest strengths is also it's greatest weakness. Incredible power! If you can figure it out.......An analogy follows.
As a tool you can build a pretty good bicycle from the get go.
What takes time is learning that this same tool can also build an interstellar time machine.

Now my small gripe. I don't like do everything tools. I prefer specialist tools that do a few things extremely well.
Unfortunately we are stuck with marketing people ( Started with ADOBE? ) that believe that the all-in-one is where the money is to be made.
People tend to be lazy and want to take the one stop easy way. Even if there are better alternatives available. They tend to purchase the one stop program, even if it is a kluge. B5/ASP DAM functions being a good example of this must have it to be competitive mentality.