Photo "judder;" changing pan & zoom from 4:3 to 16:9

[Not A Video Scholar]

Hello:

This is my first post and I'm hoping someone can help. My wife and I have successfully created several simple slide shows from old photos using VideoStudio ProX2 (version 12.0.98.1) but this time we're having a couple of problems.

The old photos were scanned in at 300 dpi. Many of them were then cleaned up (spots and scratches removed, etc.) using Microsoft Digital Image Pro 10 (which we also did on previous projects). My wife then began creating her project essentially using all of the VideoStudio defaults. She added a custom pan and zoom to every photo so that the slide show has some motion, and the person or object of interest in the photo gets enlarged and emphasized.

Problem 1: as some of the photos move, there is a visible twitch or judder--not sure what word I should use to describe it. It's like the picture jiggles a little as it moves. The problem is not in the burn, the DVD player or television, because you can see it happening when you watch the preview of the project in the software, edit mode. It seems to be random, I cannot discern a pattern to which photos, where on the timeline, which transition, etc., is related to the issue. Any ideas?

Problem 2: my wife created this project for a 4:3 aspect ratio TV, so the crop box that was used for all of the custom pan and zoom was 4:3. I would like to create a new version of the project, with all of the photos re-cropped, re-zoomed and re-panned using a 16:9 box. The problem is, I cannot figure out how to delete or un-do all of the existing 4:3 panning and zooming. I have tried opening the program with the 16:9 box checked, then opening the project file, then deleting photos from the time-line, and re-linking to a new copy of the same photo. When I open the pan and zoom box for the photo, it has a 4:3 aspect ratio crop box! Note that if I start a new project and drop the same photo on the timeline, I do get a 16:9 box for pan & zoom. So it seems that 4:3 is associated with the existing project, and I can't figure out how to get rid of it. I really don't want to have to re-create the whole thing from scratch. Is there a simple way to be able to re-do the pan & zoom at 16:9?
***Update: from an e-mail suggestion by a helpful reader, I tried selecting all of the photos on the timeline, right-clicking, then choosing auto pan and zoom, to see if that would re-do it using a 16:9 crop box (which could then be customized). No joy, it again used a 4:3 box.

Of these two questions, the first one is more important right now. Thanks for any help you can give me!

[lata]

Hi
and welcome to the forms

Question 2

I have tried the pan & zoom using 4:3, when I view the customise option I see the zoom area as 4:3
From the edit timeline I go to settings to select the 16:9 option, viewing the customised p&z option shows the zoom area to be 16:9. It seems to work ok, can you double check the zoom area?

I am afraid there is no quick way to clear the pan & zoom, later versions of VS use a Copy/Paste Attributes that would do the job, i will give it a little more thought.

When using images in a video, to fill the frame the images have to be the same aspect ratio as the video, so your images should be 4:3 or 16:9
If they are a different shape say 3 x 2 then the edges will have two black borders.

Changing the project from 4:3 to 16:9 does not alter the image, just the frame that the image is sat on.
Using Pan & Zoom will allow you to zoom in to fill the frame, zooming in will reduce the quality of the image.

Question one
Not sure why they should judder, can you give details regarding the project properties and the type of video file you created, was it standard DVD or HD, what options did you choose.

When you share Create video File – DVD-choose the options button, then deselect Smart Render. Then Save

[Not A Video Scholar]

Hi lata--

Thanks for the welcome and the reply.

On the P & Z issue, I do understand that because of the original dimensions of the photos, cropping to either 4:3 or 16:9 will result in black borders. That is not a problem. All I want to do is take the existing project, already created with every image P & Z with a 4:3 box, and save it as a new project that will allow me to go in and change the box to 16:9 in order to re-do the P & Z with cropping at 16:9.

From your answer, I do not understand where you are going to "settings" from the edit timeline. When I am in edit timeline view, my options are file, edit, clip and tools. Under file, there is a preferences option. None of the tabs in that option are for "settings," I don't see a "settings" option anywhere, so I cannot get to where you are telling me to select a 16:9 option.

On the "judder" issue, I am creating a standard DVD. Please tell me what options you are interested in, and I will check them and find out. I will try burning a DVD with SmartRender deselected, but because I can see the "twitching" in the preview box when using the edit timeline (smart proxy is on, btw) I don't think this is going to change things.

Thanks again.

[lata]

Hi

Apologies for the reference to Settings, my brain was in Video Studio X4 mode.

To change the aspect ratio of your project go to File-Project Properties – Edit—from the General tab choose 16:9 instead of 4:3
Changing this does change the shape of the zoom area when customising the P&Z

DVD
Share Create Video File – DVD will create an Mpeg2 file suitable for burning a DVD.
Play this video to check quality, if ok use it to burn a dvd. The burn process should not re-render this file, the quality you see here should be the quality you get on disc.

If your project contains only images then you can change the interlacing to frame based, this may improve quality. To do this you will have to create your own template using Tools - Make Movie Templates Manager.

Typical properties are for Pal, can you confirm you use Pal or NTSC?

MPEG files
24 bits, 720 x 576, 25 fps
Frame Based
(DVD-PAL), 4:3 or 16:9
Video data rate: 7000 kbps
Audio data rate: 256 kbps
Dolby Digital Audio, 48 KHz, 2/0(L,R)

http://lata.me.uk/video_studio/manager/manager.htm

[Not A Video Scholar]

Hello Trevor--

Your apology is gracious, but was unnecessary given how freely you are offering such helpful advice. I feel like I should apologize to you for taking up your time with these questions.

I suspect my use of a "z" in apologize has already confirmed your assumption that I am using NTSC. [edit: oops, it looks like you assumed PAL] I will try all of your suggestions on the judder issue and get back to you.

On the pan & zoom issue, yes! File, project properties, general tab was exactly what I was looking for. Now I can create my 16:9 version of the video slide show.

Thank you, I'll report back on what happens next with my judder issue.

[edit: please let me know changes to make from your prior post for NTSC. Thanks.]

Greg

[lata]

Hi Greg

A little bit more info:-

If Video Studio X4 defaults to 4:3 aspect ratio, you can change this so that new projects use 16:9
File Preferences-tick Show Startup Screen.
Restart Video Studio
The start up screen shows 16:9 option lower left-then select “do not show this message”

---------------------

Typical DVD NTSC properties:-

NTSC drop frame (29.97 fps)
MPEG files
24 bits, 720 x 480, 29.97 fps
Frame-based (try for slide show) (use interlaced for video content)
(DVD-NTSC), 16:9
Video data rate: 6000 kbps
LPCM Audio, 48000 Hz, Stereo or Dolby Digital Audio, 48 KHz, 2/0(L,R)

[Not A Video Scholar]

Hi Trevor--

Wanted to give you an update. Creating a template, with settings changed to frame-based, and creating an mpeg file first didn't solve the juddering photo issue. We have now--for the most part--avoided/worked around the issue by changing the panning and zooming. The photos where it was noticeable had very little pan and zoom. In most cases, 2 changes eliminated the judder: first, adding more zooming, resulting in faster movment; second, changing points A and B for the pan so that they are either perfectly vertical or horizontal--no need for angular movement of the photo. In case this provides a clue, the cases where we could not solve the juddering all seem to be old black & white photos with soft, or out-of, focus. At this point we can live with our project as is, not sure if our problem is the software, or the (lack of) power of our computers.

I was aware of the option to change the default to 16:9 at the start-up screen. To be clear for others reading this, doing so doesn't allow you to re-do the pan and zoom of a project that was created 4:3, changing it to 16:9. The only way to change an existing project from 4:3 to 16:9 or vice-versa, that I now know of, is your recommendation to go to file-project properties-edit.

Thanks and regards

Greg

[Not A Video Scholar]

Hello Trevor--

If you (or anyone else) is still checking this thread, is there any chance that creating an MPEG2 file at 59.94 fps, then burning that to DVD, would stop the shaking?

Thanks

Greg

[Ken Berry]

The only problem is that if you are talking about a standard def DVD, then the international standard does not include a frame rate of 59.94 true frames per second for NTSC. It is only interleaved 29.97 fps.

[Not A Video Scholar]

Hi Ken--

Could you please "dumb it down" for me? What I was getting at is this: I thought maybe the jittery panning I am seeing (on slow pans of old b&w photos scanned in at 300 dpi) is being caused by the BluRay player or display (1080p) doubling the standard DVD, and that maybe by creating a video file first where it is already doubled, would fix that. I don't understand your answer, really, but I am assuming you're telling me that either (1) my idea is way off base, or (2) creating the doubled video file isn't going to change a thing, or (3) both of the foregoing are true.

Thanks

Greg

[lata]

Hi Greg

There are two main types of disc we can make, a Standard Definition DVD and a High Definition DVD
When we burn a Standard Disc we have use mpeg2 type video files, because that’s what the disc is composed of, these video files use 29.96 fps (for Ntsc) 25 fps for Pal

If your source video uses 60 fps and you use that file to burn a Standard DVD it will be converted to 29.96 fps prior to burning.

High Definition – BluRay
You need a Bluray burner fitted to the pc
You need BluRay discs
To play the disc you need a Bluray Player connected to the TV.

If you play a standard DVD on a large HD TV then there is going to be some quality reduction.
The frame size 720 x 480 being stretched to fit the HD TV.
A Bluray frame will use 1920 x 1080 far larger than the standard of 720 x 480.

Your Images
300dpi is the print resolution but does not tell us how large the images are.
The dimensions in pixels is required . 1200 x 900 is relatively small but would be suitable for a standard video providing you do not zoom in.
For HD you really need to up this doubling the frame size (1920 x 1080) would be more suitable, for HD video that’s about 4000px x 2250px

So the question is what are the sizes of your images?
Right click the image in the timeline and select properties. The general tab should show the dimensions (Width and Height.)

[Ken Berry]

Just a couple of extra points flowing from what Trevor has said.

If your source video uses 60 fps and you use that file to burn a Standard DVD it will be converted to 29.96 fps prior to burning.

It does so essentially by throwing away half the frames. Depending on what is on the video, this may produce rather jerky looking video, so is not recommended.

There are two main types of disc we can make, a Standard Definition DVD and a High Definition DVD

Regarding the High Definition DVD, Trevor has mentioned only Blu-Ray discs. Many people tend to think of them as DVDs with much better quality high definition video on them. But in fact they are quite different in various respects, so it can be misleading to think of them as being another form of DVD. But there is a type of high definition DVD which is in fact burned to a standard DVD disc, rather than to a Blu-Ray disc, which is called either an AVCHD disc or a hybrid disc. It has to use high def AVCHD as the format, as opposed to HDV, and it has the same directory as a Blu-Ray disc -- namely a BDMV folder, with the video in a STREAM sub-folder -- as opposed to a Video_TS folder and an Audio_TS folder which is found on a standard def DVD. Hybrid discs can be burned with an ordinary DVD burner, but once burned, they can only be played back on a Blu-Ray player rated to play such discs (usually with a sticker saying 'AVCHD'). And because of size differences between a DVD (4.3 GB for a single layer disc) and a Blu-Ray disc (25 GB single layer), using the highest bitrate for a hybrid disc (18 Mbps), you can only burn about 20 minutes of AVCHD to a hybrid single layer disc.

[Not A Video Scholar]

Ken & Trevor--

Thank you, both posts very helpful in increasing my understanding.

I did create the 59.94 fps MPEG2 file, and then burn to standard DVD, just to see what would happen. Answer: the jittery panning was the same, but some of the transition effects between photos were altered, and not in a good way. So that was a failed experiment.

If you gentlemen have the patience to continue this discussion, here is where I am at a loss to understand the part about the size of the images I am using. Since I am scanning in old photos, I can't change the size (can I?). All I can do is change the dpi on the scan. And remember, I have created a 4:3 DVD, and am having my plasma screen display it in its original 4:3 dimension with bars on the sides, not stretch it to fill the screen. The only stretching that is going on is to put what was originally a small photograph (say 4" by 3") up on a 50" display.

The mystery to me is why the jittery panning doesn't impact every photo in the project. This makes me wonder if it is: 1) a software bug, or 2) a problem with my computer not being able to render properly.

To answer your question, Trevor, two of the old photos that have a pronounced jitter problem when panning have these properties. Photo 1: 340 pixels wide, 589 pixels high, 96 pixels per inch resolution. Photo 2: 999W, 1462H, 72 per inch. Newer photos, which were taken with a digital camera and have no jitter problem: 2048W, 1536H, 72 per inch.

Last, and I add this in just in case it provides a clue, in some of the photos where people are wearing striped shirts, or other busy patterns, I've noticed a moire problem during playback that I've grown accustomed to NEVER seeing on an HD display. I'm wondering whether this is a by-product of the 300 dpi scanning, or is being caused by something else.

I'm also wondering if I should download the trial version of the newest VideoStudio, to see if that would fix this issue.

[lata]

Hi

Image sizes, refer to the dimensions only, an image of 2048W x 1536H is 4:3 ratio.
This will fill the video frame and look good quality, it will look reasonable on a 50” tv set.

An image of 340w x 589h is portrait, it will not fill the frame, it is only using 589 pixels to fit the 50” TV the quality will be poor.

If you are scanning a small image, by small I mean its dimensions in inches, a 4 x 3 in photo.
Set the scan DPI to 600, the resultant file will be 2400 x 1800. the quality will depend on the original image quality. Other types of scanners may allow you to set the actual pixel dimensions 2400 x 1800
-------------------------------------

When you create a standard DVD the video frame size is 720 x 480 for NTSC.
Your image of 2048 x 1536 will be resized to 720 x 480, yep that is loosing a lot.

Having sizes larger than the video frame does allow us to zoom in and retain the original quality.

Even so your video frame size is 720 it is standard definition and you intend to view it on a large 50” screen, there will be some reduction in quality.
You may be best to change the DVD to 16:9 this will increase the frame size allowing your images to use a greater number of pixels.

If you use images of 589 then they will look poor on a small TV set and on a 50” will be terrible.
-----------------------------------

Things to try, re-scan the images to create a larger sizes, 1200w x 1800h ish for the portrait image. Double this size for landscape images. 2400 x 1800

Try creating a DVD to 16:9.

One more thing, does your TV allow for a USB memory card, if so save the video to the card to play the video.
If you have this option then consider creating a High Definition video file. That should give full quality on your TV.

[Not A Video Scholar]

Trevor--

Thank you for the detailed explanation, I think I am starting to understand. Unfortunately, many of the original old photos have been returned to their owners, so re-scanning right now is not an option. And, the "premiere" of the video is at a family function this Friday--if I told my wife she needed to start re-scanning now, I think I might not be around to post any more messages!

The good news is, most of the jitteriness and moire-effect has been minimized by one (or more) of 3 changes, I'm not sure which one really had the impact. I found the anti-flicker filter for images and turned it on; I changed the compression setting from its default (which I think was around 70) to its highest setting; and my wife made changes to the panning and zooming on some images. The other good news is that the old b&w photos, even the ones that are only 589, don't look bad at all.

A few additional things. Keep in mind that we wanted to preserve the original look of the photos--no stretching an old 4x3 photo in order to fill a 16:9 screen, which results in the fun-house mirror effect on people's faces and bodies. Italics below are quotes from your last post.

Having sizes larger than the video frame does allow us to zoom in and retain the original quality.

I understand what you're saying--however, would this also not result in information from the edges of the photo being cropped off? If so, on some of these old photos, we would not have been able to afford losing portions of the image around its borders.

Even so your video frame size is 720 it is standard definition and you intend to view it on a large 50” screen, there will be some reduction in quality.
You may be best to change the DVD to 16:9 this will increase the frame size allowing your images to use a greater number of pixels.

The problem with changing the DVD to 16:9 is that (unless you are OK with stretching/distorting the original image), many of the old 4:3 photos don't crop well to 16:9. The photographer composed them with "square" in mind, and you just lose too much from the top and bottom of the image going to 16:9, or you have to display a fairly small image with really large black bars on the sides.

If you use images of 589 then they will look poor on a small TV set and on a 50” will be terrible.

As I said, they look surprisingly good. My wife is happy, so that's good.

I am going to try to get the photos back, re-scan them, and create a file on an SD card, which the television will play. Don't know when this will be, but at some point I'll post info as to how it turned out.

Thank you (and Ken) for all of your help.

Greg