ASP, PSP and XMP

[Tadjio]

Given the recent discussion around the interaction of AfterShot Pro and PaintShop Pro, particular the use of XMP files for EXIF/IPTC data, I thought I would make some comments.

ASP is avowedly non-destructive and therefore never changes the original image file, even for Rating Stars.

PSP, like Windows Explorer, only reads and uses the data in the image file ("The Propertties") and ignores all XMP files.

However, if ASP is used to write a Batch Output JPG, this can contain all the modifications via Embedded EXIF, IPTC, XMP, Colour Profile and Copyright. PSP will then recognise and use these.

Likewsie, if ASP calls PSP as the External Editor, all this data is passed, including for example the Star Rating.

PSP X4 consists of 3 Modes - Edit Mode used as it says for Editing Images, Adjust Mode (cut down version of the same) and Manage Mode, purportedly used for Managing Image Files and Folders including MetaData and Star Ratings.

Personally I only use Edit Mode. Within this is the Image Information option, which displays IPTC and EXIF Information (but not the Star Rating). It also allows you to amend some of these e.g. Copyright and Title, all of which ASP will recognise when passed back.

I have tracked the passing of this EXIF and IPTC data back and forth between ASP and PSP (via the Properties) and there is a good correlation. One I couldnt find in PSP was the ASP Location (Iptc4xmpCore:Location="ASP Location").

ASP writes two forms of XMP File for an Image such as "ImageFile.jpg" - its own "AfterShot XMP file" which includes all the internal ASP image editing changes called "ImageFile.JPG.xmp", and "standard XMP file" called "ImageFile.xmp" which is to the Adobe standard.

So, the bottom line is that we have an impasse. If you change any EXIF, IPTC or Star Rating in ASP, it is written to the disk immediately in the XMP File but Windows Explorer and PSP will never see this whereas if you change these in PSP, ASP will pick these up in the Image Properties.

[afx]

XMP sidecars have been around for ages, I guess it is time for Corel to fix PSP....
I guess it is just a matter of time.

cheers
afx

[Tadjio]

XMP sidecars have been around for ages, I guess it is time for Corel to fix PSP....
I guess it is just a matter of time.
cheers
afx

Firstly you should ask Microsoft to fix Windows Explorer, which also ignores XMP sidecars,
not to name too many other applications such as ZoomBrowser amongst a myriad of other ones.

PaintShop Pro has been around a lot longer than XMP so please respect the elderly:-

Originally called simply Paint Shop, the first version, 1.0, was a basic picture converter between BMP, GIF and PCX formats, released in August 1990.

I have version 1.02 running on my computer

There is a much more straightforward solution to this impasse:
ASP reads the Properties of an image file, including for example the Copyright and Star Rating.
Just as many other examples of software, such as Exifer, it should write those same Properties without in any way 'destroying' the image whenever they are altered in ASP.

Simple, practical and elegant.

[afx]

[quote="Tadjio"Firstly you should ask Microsoft to fix Windows Explorer, which also ignores XMP sidecars,[/quote]Who cares about Microsoft?

not to name too many other applications such as ZoomBrowser amongst a myriad of other ones.

And other Windows toys.

PaintShop Pro has been around a lot longer than XMP so please respect the elderly:-

No excuse for procrastination.
All professional software dealing with metadata handles standard XMP sidecars. Time to catch up.

[quoite]Just as many other examples of software, such as Exifer, it should write those same Properties without in any way 'destroying' the image whenever they are altered in ASP.[/quote]
There have been enough cases of destroyed raw files by third party apps writing to them.
After all, that is modifying reverse engineered files whose base layout could change on a whim.
It just is not save enough.

cheers
afx

[Tadjio]

There have been enough cases of destroyed raw files by third party apps writing to them.
After all, that is modifying reverse engineered files whose base layout could change on a whim.

We are talking about Rendered Images (primarily JPEG but also TIFF) that have Properties that are read by a myriad of other programs. No reverse engineering involved.

It just is not save enough.

My point exactly. Save the Image Properties if they change

[Tadjio]

Save the Image Properties if they change

For the purists who throw their hands up in horror at ASP writing an Image File to disk without going through a Batch Output process may I suggest the following?

If the (JPG) Image is read via the File System tab, yes, the Image Properties need to be updated at the same moment that the XMP sidecar is written (invisibly to the user). This will show in the History until ASP is closed.

If an Image is processed in the Library Catalog, the same applies, but the History of all such changes will be retained so that the user is able to revert to the original status quo, thus retaining the non-destructive procedure.

Users who bypass the Catalog and go for the File System are in effect doing no different from those using Windows Explorer, PaintShop Pro or any other sofware where they Save the Image File (to the same or a differnet name).

[B4b5]

ASP is avowedly non-destructive and therefore never changes the original image file, even for Rating Stars.

That's a good thing , right?

PSP, like Windows Explorer, only reads and uses the data in the image file ("The Propertties") and ignores all XMP files.

Should we think that windows is a good role model for Professional image software?

However, if ASP is used to write a Batch Output JPG, this can contain all the modifications via Embedded EXIF, IPTC, XMP, Colour Profile and Copyright. PSP will then recognise and use these.

A .jpg or.tiff output by ASP is just that - Output which is no longer the provence of ASP.
It is a new entity that can be used or abused by anyone in any way that they like without effect to the original ASP-RAW image.

Likewsie, if ASP calls PSP as the External Editor, all this data is passed, including for example the Star Rating.

But it's passed as a .tiff which is named differently from the original ASP-RAW - ASP is not responsible for what you do with your newly named file.

PSP X4 consists of 3 Modes - Edit Mode used as it says for Editing Images, Adjust Mode (cut down version of the same) and Manage Mode, purportedly used for Managing Image Files and Folders including MetaData and Star Ratings.

Personally I only use Edit Mode. Within this is the Image Information option, which displays IPTC and EXIF Information (but not the Star Rating). It also allows you to amend some of these e.g. Copyright and Title, all of which ASP will recognise when passed back.

I have tracked the passing of this EXIF and IPTC data back and forth between ASP and PSP (via the Properties) and there is a good correlation. One I couldnt find in PSP was the ASP Location (Iptc4xmpCore:Location="ASP Location").

ASP writes two forms of XMP File for an Image such as "ImageFile.jpg" - its own "AfterShot XMP file" which includes all the internal ASP image editing changes called "ImageFile.JPG.xmp", and "standard XMP file" called "ImageFile.xmp" which is to the Adobe standard.

So, the bottom line is that we have an impasse. If you change any EXIF, IPTC or Star Rating in ASP, it is written to the disk immediately in the XMP File but Windows Explorer and PSP will never see this whereas if you change these in PSP, ASP will pick these up in the Image Properties.

I don't see the impasse, none of this is relevant to a discussion of passing data back and forth between ASP & PSP because the data is NOT being passed back and forth.
There are no common files; data is only being passed forward from one program to the next and neither one harms the other. So ASP remains essential and non destructive
and PSP remains a ton of fun to play with, and best of all, there's never a worry about destroying the original ASP-RAW file.

[Tadjio]

I don't see the impasse, none of this is relevant to a discussion of passing data back and forth between ASP & PSP because the data is NOT being passed back and forth.
There are no common files; data is only being passed forward from one program to the next and neither one harms the other. So ASP remains essential and non destructive
and PSP remains a ton of fun to play with, and best of all, there's never a worry about destroying the original ASP-RAW file.

Henry:
There is no problem when one calls PSP as an External Editor.
(There was early on in beta testing when using the Catalog but I alerted Corel and they fixed it).

The problem concerns use of ASP as a Digital Asset Manager (or even just as a simple File System).
All the work done in ASP is 'locked-in' and nothing is visible externally (other than via XMP files).

So if one were to set a Star Rating or amend the Copyright Notice within ASP, no other program (especially PSP) would recognise these changes to the MetaData.

PSP is a Windows program and we all use Windows Explorer. Again Windows Explorer is unaware of MetaData changes made in ASP.

As a result it is virtually impossible to 'manage' ones Images in a Windows environment outside of ASP.

[claudermilk]

If you are using a DAM, why would you want to be managing your images in Windows Explorer?

I only use ASP/Bibble as a RAW converter, and use IMatch as my DAM. I rarely every look at the image files or associated XMP files directly within Windows--that's the whole point of the DAM.

[ashmoore]

I think the problem is really that you are using jpgs.
ASP (Bibble) was designed as a raw processor - which is why it is none destructive.
The use of sidecar files in this case is the industry norm.

When you use jpegs, only output files are rewritten with updated metadata rather than the original.
Basically, ASP is not working at its best when using jpegs.

[Tadjio]

If you are using a DAM, why would you want to be managing your images in Windows Explorer?
I only use ASP/Bibble as a RAW converter, and use IMatch as my DAM. I rarely every look at the image files or associated XMP files directly within Windows--that's the whole point of the DAM.

If I had absolute confidence in a DAM (i.e. that I was damn sure about) I wouldn't be managing images in Windows Explorer.
With PSP since Corel took it over from JASC, they have attempted to introduce such DAM facilities, based around a SQLite Database but it has not been succesful.
Now Corel has introduced ASP I am understandably wary of committing myself totally, especially with over 10 years' worth (50,000+) of digital images on my PC.
Also, I like to understand the beast I am grappling with first, which involves looking under the bonnet (hood)

In addition, I want to be able to use PSP as a stand-alone Editor and as such it needs access to Images held in ASP, including the MetaData, which is where this whole thread started.

[Tadjio]

I think the problem is really that you are using jpgs.
ASP (Bibble) was designed as a raw processor - which is why it is none destructive.
The use of sidecar files in this case is the industry norm.
When you use jpegs, only output files are rewritten with updated metadata rather than the original.
Basically, ASP is not working at its best when using jpegs.

I think you are right. I am using JPGs and TIFFs but I almost always start with the RAW Image in ASP.
PSP is useless with RAW Conversion, so one has to use JPGs and TIFFs with it (as well as its own proprietary lossless layered PSPImage files).
Up to now I have used Canon's Digital Photo Professional for my RAW conversion, which incidentally also doesn't recognise XMP sidecars.
If ASP is any DAMn good, it ought to handle JPGs in a manner compatible with other programs despite the fact it originated as a RAW processor. The majority of my old images are JPGs.

[Cootje]

Guys,

In some other threads I was questioning this interaction between PSP and ASP, so I'm pleased with this discussion. With a growing digital archieve I´m struggling with the lock-in of the different photo management tools. In almost all cases you are forced to import your images into a proprietary catalog. It could be my experience or lack of understanding but this approach gives challenges when you want to use other/specific tools for e.g. raw and/or detailed post processing in you workflow. In addition working on multiple systems (desktop @home and laptop @travel) is not possible without some type of sychronization...

The idea of using XMP for handling all metadata in addition to your original images (RAW, JPG and others) sounds as an open approach. At least when all the tools in your workflow are supporting this open standard. I was surprised that corel has not tackled this element in their different tools. As far as I understand now, also corel is forcing you to use their proprietary catalog(s) in PSP and/or ASP. They missed an opportunity...

I hope that this issue will be adressed, because I believe corel has some valuable peices of software...

Just my thought....

Cootje

[afx]

As far as I understand now, also corel is forcing you to use their proprietary catalog(s) in PSP and/or ASP.

Not in ASP. You can generate Standard XMPs for interoperability with programs that only understand these and many newer DAM apps also directly read the Bibble/AS specific XMPs.

cheers
afx

[B4b5]

I think the problem is really that you are using jpgs.
ASP (Bibble) was designed as a raw processor - which is why it is none destructive.
The use of sidecar files in this case is the industry norm.
When you use jpegs, only output files are rewritten with updated metadata rather than the original.
Basically, ASP is not working at its best when using jpegs.

I think you are right. I am using JPGs and TIFFs but I almost always start with the RAW Image in ASP.
PSP is useless with RAW Conversion, so one has to use JPGs and TIFFs with it (as well as its own proprietary lossless layered PSPImage files).
Up to now I have used Canon's Digital Photo Professional for my RAW conversion, which incidentally also doesn't recognise XMP sidecars.
If ASP is any DAMn good, it ought to handle JPGs in a manner compatible with other programs despite the fact it originated as a RAW processor. The majority of my old images are JPGs.

Your original RAW file will always be unique to that instant when you clicked the shutter.
All subsequently produced .jpg & .tiff are expendable output even if produced by ASP.

If we agree that this is the essential difference between RAW; and .jpg or .tiff, (in this context) then all that's left
is to figure out is how to get the most benefit out of each program - ASP and PSP. Vive la différence.