Topaz Labs plugins can be run from ASP

[B4b5]

[quote="B4b5]we need to hope that in this new environment Non Destructive remains paramount to ASP.

Isn't that the entire reason for ASP/Bibble? Without that you may as well be using PSP/PSCSn.

[/quote][/quote]
I do not disagree with your statement, but for those of us processing RAW files all editors are non-destructive. We have our original RAW image, which remains unchanged, and the generated sidecars that describe the changes. I generally find that I never made sufficient changes to run out of "undo" calls so as long as I have not closed the editor I can always expect to undo whatever I need to undo and that is true with pretty much all of my editors (PSP X4, CS5, Dxo OP, ASP, etc).

And, if worse comes to worse I can always start over again with my original RAW image.[/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote]
Probably would have been better to say;

Non Destructive and Reproducible with a single file, long after the session has ended and with no need to memorize any of the exact steps.

[grubernd]

I generally find that I never made sufficient changes to run out of "undo" calls so as long as I have not closed the editor I can always expect to undo whatever I need to undo and that is true with pretty much all of my editors (PSP X4, CS5, Dxo OP, ASP, etc).

and there you have it.. "undo" is not "non-destructive" editing.
in a non-destructive enviroment you can change ANY setting without
having to un- or redo any of the steps that followed your edit.

e.g. you may start with a crop, then do some color-corrections, add meta-data, etc.
in non-destructive editing you can still change the crop with no problems at all.
you just change the crop.

crop is on of the best tests for non-destructive editing,
because it is so obvious to see if you have to change/redo anything else or
if changing the crop is enough to give your final image a new appearence..

[df]

In PSP open your image, do a bunch of edits, go to you history palette, click one thing, right click it and click Undo Selected. Same result. Now, open two images, do a bunch of things on image one, then image two. Now go back to image one and selectively undo whatever you want. Try that in ASP, oh wait, you've gotta undo everything you've done on the second image before you can even start to undo anything on the first image. Sounds pretty destructive to me.

[B4b5]

Try that in ASP, oh wait, you've gotta undo everything you've done on the second image before you can even start to undo anything on the first image. Sounds pretty destructive to me.

This just isn't even close to the way it works. If you don't have a copy of ASP get the trial and play with it a whole bunch.
If you ever discover a way to destroy or even modify a RAW image using ASP Every ASP user will be keen to learning the reproducible steps to image destruction; if only to avoid them.

[df]

Who said anything about modifying a raw file? If your criteria for being a non-destructive image editor is that it doesn't modify raw files well then PSP is a non-destructive editor.

Take two images, do stuff on the first one, switch to the second one and do stuff, go back to the first one and press Ctrl Z. If that doesn't take you back to the second image then my copy is broken. If it does take you back to the second image then it is exactly as I stated. Trying to undo things on the first image makes you first undo them on the second image.

[deifl]

Take two images, do stuff on the first one, switch to the second one and do stuff, go back to the first one and press Ctrl Z. If that doesn't take you back to the second image then my copy is broken. If it does take you back to the second image then it is exactly as I stated. Trying to undo things on the first image makes you first undo them on the second image.

Ever tried the history in ASP to undo things? Just give Ctrl-Shift-H a look.

Regards

[grubernd]

dearest df,

how is life on a soapbox?

unless you can open an image in PSP, crop it, edit further things, close PSP,
reopen PSP and crop differently .. it is destructive.

[Tadjio]

unless you can open an image in PSP, crop it, edit further things, close PSP,
reopen PSP and crop differently .. it is destructive.

No-one does that and destroys the original

Standard practice is to edit an image and then do a SaveAs to keep it under a different name.
Within a PSP session one can (selectively) un-do and re-do History steps to achieve the same result as in ASP.
The major difference is there is no concept of the 'pipeline' (which I am just beginning to appreciate).

In addition, one can copy History steps to a Script for re-use. These scripts are much more powerful than ASP Presets and are written in Python, which can include Conditional tests etc.

If you use ASP on the File System, closing ASP is no different from editing an image in PSP, Saving it under a different name and closing PSP. The workaround in PSP is to use an 'interim' PSPImage file possibly with multiple layers, if the Image is important and will be worked on again in the future.

The difference arises when you use the Library Catalog, then indeed ASP is 'non-destructive' over multiple sessions.

[grubernd]

sorry, but you should really try to understand the difference.

maybe the edit-history is lost, but in non-destructive editing you can change settings at free will at any time. you do "save as" in something called "versions" in ASP. but any of those are still fully editable. you can copy settings between them and so on.

i have more than 15 years of professional usage of destructive and non-destructive editing in my book. i have been using fully non-destructive color-correction workflows in photoshop via adjustment layers since the day they came upon us - that was quite some time ago. in reallife usage that means somewhere between 30 to 100+ layers for a museum-quality print. i can go back to the very first curve adjustment i did on such a file while i would only need to save a single version. but i couldnt unchange a crop or actual pixel retouching etc.. PS or PSP, they are destructive with some non-destructive elements (metadata for example).

ASP is fully non-destructive with all image settings. and i'll repeat: undo or edit-history is not a sign of non-destructive work.

try to find a copy of Bibble4 .. 100% non-destructive, not even a single undo-step.
still you can change all settings any time over and over again.

[Tadjio]

sorry, but you should really try to understand the difference.

maybe the edit-history is lost, but in non-destructive editing you can change settings at free will at any time.
ASP is fully non-destructive with all image settings. and i'll repeat: undo or edit-history is not a sign of non-destructive work.

Sorry, Grubend, I have never tried to state or imply that PSP is 'non-destructive'
I was just trying to counter your suggestion that someone might edit an image in PSP, close it and then re-open it 'non-destructively'. This is obviously a major feature of ASP.

However if one is not using the Library Catalog but rather the File System, then between sessions ASP is no different from PSP where one has done a SaveAs of the original image.

[grubernd]

sorry, but you should really try to understand the difference.

maybe the edit-history is lost, but in non-destructive editing you can change settings at free will at any time.
ASP is fully non-destructive with all image settings. and i'll repeat: undo or edit-history is not a sign of non-destructive work.

Sorry, Grubend, I have never tried to state or imply that PSP is 'non-destructive'
I was just trying to counter your suggestion that someone might edit an image in PSP, close it and then re-open it 'non-destructively'. This is obviously a major feature of ASP.

this thread has diverted quite a bit.. others have stated that they can do the "same" non-destructive things in software that in it's core is destructive by design. now that is not a bad thing in itself, but understanding the difference is quite crucial in how you can implement a workflow. how much space you need on your harddrives, how you work with old settings, renderings, etc.

However if one is not using the Library Catalog but rather the File System, then between sessions ASP is no different from PSP where one has done a SaveAs of the original image.

i give up.

[Tadjio]

this thread has diverted quite a bit..

However if one is not using the Library Catalog but rather the File System, then between sessions ASP is no different from PSP where one has done a SaveAs of the original image.

i give up.

Please don't give up. I did state between sessions. Tell me I am wrong...

[grubernd]

lol.

okay, you got me. =)

leaving things like undo and the edit-history aside there is no difference in ASP where you are and what you did. there is only what you want to do. the order of doing anything is not important. also it doesnt make a difference if you change images, folders, close or open the software etc. have you ever had to save anything you changed in ASP? no. never. the software does it. have a power failure or a crash? you lose none of your settings.

simplified: the difference between destructive and non-destructive editing is between using a pencil & paper versus a computer & texteditor. both have their strongholds, but they are different things entirely in the way you can work with them.

[Tadjio]

lol.

okay, you got me. =)

there is no difference in ASP where you are and what you did. there is only what you want to do. the order of doing anything is not important.

What about the 'pipeline'?
I keep reading mention of it but I am not sure about the implications.
I know afx said AutoLevel is different from AutoContrast because it is much earlier in the pipeline, so there is a difference, dependant on the order...
Perhaps you should start a new thread with your pearls of wisdom on this

[grubernd]

What about the 'pipeline'?
I keep reading mention of it but I am not sure about the implications.

the pipeline determines in which order the settings are rendered to the data.
neither the layout of the tools, nor the order of layers, nor how and when you change any of the settings has an influence on the look of the final image.

i guess you will have a lot of fun with the Survival Guide once afx and marco have it updated for ASP.. highly recommended..