Lost or repeated frames in Pro X4

[pierrenev]

Here is my problem.
After reviewing some of my rendered videos, I find out that most (if not all) of them lose or add a few frames during the rendering.
This seems to happen within the first 30 seconds of my 3 minutes clips.
My orginal MPEG2 files are OK, but not the rendered MPEG, after editing.
To make sure of that, I review them in my Pro X4,
I place the original on my main track, and I put the rendered MPEG on the overlay.
I can then pin point the exact frame where that problem appears.
My original file is of good quality and has been captured wih a hard disk camcorder (Sony SR100).
Any idea?
Pierre.

[Ron P.]

Welcome to the forums,

Is your source video NTSC or PAL ? When you render your project what are you using? Share>Create Video File---DVD NTSC or DVD PAL ? You're not by chance inadvertently using the wrong one? If your source is NTSC it uses a frame rate of 29.97fps and you render a PAL video, which uses 25fps, you would loose 4.97 frames for every second of video. Vice-versa would add that amount, that is generally done by just duplicating frames.

[pierrenev]

Hi ron,
My source is NTSC and my ouput is also NTSC. I am using Share>Create video File DVD NTSC. I also always use the same projects settings for the ouput.
Quality: 100, Bit rate 8264, Upper field (same as the original). The result is always very good, except for these missing or frozen frames.
Besides, my files are at leat 3 or 4 minutes long, and there is only those 2 missing or frozen frames in the output. To be very clear, here is an example: at 0min,12th second,26th frame, the two files are still perfectly in synch. At frames 27th and 28th, the 26th frame is repeated. If I check at the end of the video (at 3.05.00, for instance) there is still only 2 frames of outsynch between the video files (the original and the rendered one).
I also made some tests on a shortened file ( 40 seconds). What found is that the problem always appeaed at the exact same spot, during the rendering. I may be wrong, but that tells me that it is not an intermittent problem in my computer's system, because the problem would appear at odd places, with the same file.
What is even more surprising is, if I cut exactly 2 seconds of that video, the problem won't happen 2 seconds sooner; it may appear further or sooner, but again, only once.
I thought or reinstalling my Pro X4, do you think that could help?
Pierre.

[pierrenev]

Hi again, Ron,
Below is my previous answer to your questions/comments.
Since then, I made other tests and found a solution that corrected my problem.
I apply 2 pass encode to the share render option (with all the other same settings) and the rendered file was completely in synch with the original ( no missing or repeated frames).
I will now try the same option with the 32 files I already processes. It will take a while, but it's worth it.
I'll let you know if they all come out OK.
Pierre.
---
Previous answer:
My source is NTSC and my ouput is also NTSC. I am using Share>Create video File DVD NTSC. I also always use the same projects settings for the ouput.
Quality: 100, Bit rate 8264, Upper field (same as the original). The result is always very good, except for these missing or frozen frames.
Besides, my files are at leat 3 or 4 minutes long, and there is only those 2 missing or frozen frames in the output. To be very clear, here is an example: at 0min,12th second,26th frame, the two files are still perfectly in synch. At frames 27th and 28th, the 26th frame is repeated. If I check at the end of the video (at 3.05.00, for instance) there is still only 2 frames of outsynch between the video files (the original and the rendered one).
I also made some tests on a shortened file ( 40 seconds). What found is that the problem always appeaed at the exact same spot, during the rendering. I may be wrong, but that tells me that it is not an intermittent problem in my computer's system, because the problem would appear at odd places, with the same file.
What is even more surprising is, if I cut exactly 2 seconds of that video, the problem won't happen 2 seconds sooner; it may appear further or sooner, but again, only once.
I thought or reinstalling my Pro X4, do you think that could help?

[pierrenev]

I have processed 4 files with "two-pass encoding" along with my other settings. 3 came out OK, but the 4th one had the same problem ( frame repeated twice). So the problem is still unsolved. I still have a 2 frames out-of-synch on my processed video file. Still hoping for some help.
I think that I will try reinstalling my Pro X4.
Pierre.

[Trevor Andrew]

Hi

Does the new rendered video file contain the same frames as the original.?

Have you tried disabling Smart Render.

[pierrenev]

Hi,
I will unclick Smart Render and get back to you.
For the number of frames, I don't know where to get that info.
Thanks.
Pierre.

[Trevor Andrew]

Hi Pierre

Right click a clip in the timeline and select properties, do the same for both video files.
What are they, are they the same.?

Or add a video to the top track and one to the overlay track, view the end frames, expand the timeline by clicking the + to zoom into the timeline to view frame by frame.

[pierrenev]

Hi everyone,
Update on my tests to get rid of the dropped or repeated frames.
I followed Trevor's advice and I had a 100% success. Out of 5 files tested, 5 came out OK.
Users should be made aware of that solution.
For those having the same problem, see below:
----
Hi Trevor,
I tried unclicking Smart Render and it has worked. Thanks.
No frames dropped or repeated, this time.
I will try it on my remaining 28 projects, now.
I could leave them as they are, since it's hard to see the difference in regular viewing, but since it can be fixed, it's worth it and I'll know for the next times.
These videos start in the dark and end in the dark, and the repeated frames were at the beginning (within 40 seconds).
Since I synch a video containing the audio to my original file, I want to avoid dropped (or repeated) frames in the final product.
---
By the way, I did the "rightclicking" to find out the properties of the original and the edited videos.
The numbers are different, because the length is different. My orignial file is cut, before I start to render it; so there always more frames in it, since the properties show the original data.
I also tried putting back the edited file on the overkay track, to compare the length (after zooming to the maximum).
The both end up at the same spot.
Since they both end in the dark, I must go back 10 or 20 seconds to be able to compare the two images.
Before I did the correction that you suggested, there was, as I mentioned, a 2 frames off (late) in the edited one.
And, as much as I can tell, it happens in the first 40 seconds.
I was able to view it on one of my files which started in full light.
So, thanks again.
I hope all my other files come out OK, now.
Pierre.

[Milos]

Dear friends,
I noticed this problem even in the older versions of this soft, (Videostudio10, Pro X2). Now i have been trying for a while a trial version of Prox4 and Cyberlink PowerDirector and still I have the same problem. I only work with some educational videos in MPGE2 and the whole task is to put some titles in it and make a dubbing in our language, therefore I surely want smart rendering for achieving maximal quality . Today I have done 3 tests with short 2 minutes video, where I put at about 17sec from the beginning of the video a title lasting about 10sec and I have done rendering in ProX2, Pro X4 (with smart rendering through mpeg optimizer) and PowerDirector9 (with smart rendering SVRT switched on). There are a few frozen (or repeated) frames in both X2 and X4. When I checked the output of PoweDirector, everything was absolutely fine, you can not see, where the rendered file ends and the original nonrendered file continues.Then I shifted the title at about 1min from the begfinning and it happened again- at the and of the rendered part the picture is frozen for a while, so I think it occurs always. Du you have any suggestion how to solve this problem whithot switching off smart rendering? It is obvious that when you render complete file (Smart rendering off) then this problem will not occur, but the price is recompression of the whole video. I used to work with Womble Wizard, which also is able to put titles in video without any visible problems, but its titler is terrible, so I am looking for better solution.
Thanks for your answer
P.S. I have checked the lenght of both files:
original file : 3134 frames, 125,36 sec
the same with title: 3136 frames, 125,44 sec

[Trevor Andrew]

Hi Milos

and welcome to the forums.

Video Studio has had some problems in the past when using Smart Render, some issues were associated with transitions, others with titles etc.
No definite reason as to why as similar setups performed ok. But disabling Smart Render did cure the problems and effectively improved quality.

Indeed our resident HD guru recommends disabling Smart Render when working with HD video files.
(I’m sure I will get corrected on that if incorrect)

Smart Render works by fully rendering the edited portions, in addition if the frame size or bit rate are being changed then all frames will need rendering. Effectively disabling Smart Render.

If you change the Frame Rate (fames per second) then frames will be added or removed during encoding/rendering.

Milos we need to know more about your video files properties, the original and the rendered files.
From the library or timeline Right click each video and select properties.
What are they.?

[Milos]

Hi, thanks for a very quick replay, here is required information:
Original file
File: PAL DVD 60446 kB; duration 125,36 sec
Video: MPEG-2 Video, Upper field first, 3144 frames, 24bits, 720x576, 4:3, 25,000 frames/sec, Variable bitrate (max 4000kbps)
Audio:Dolby Digital Audio, 6 017 280 samples, 48000Hz, layer none, 256 kbps

Rendered file:
File: PAL DVD, 60450 kB; duration 125,440 sec
Video: MPEG-2 Video, Upper field first, 3136 frames, 24bits, 720x576, 4:3, 25,000 frames/sec, Variable bitrate (max 4000kbps)
Audio:Dolby Digital Audio, 6 021 120 samples, 48000Hz, layer none, 256 kbps

[bnigrell]

Hi all

I have had this exact same problem before : see my post http://forum.corel.com/EN/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=38438
The only way I could solve it was to forget the HD quality and to render in DV quality instaed. (Which is a pity with a HD camera and a HD TV ...)
But at least in DV quality the frames in the edited project and rendered clip are just exactly the same.

[Trevor Andrew]

Hi Milos

The only difference seems to be the number of frames 3144 to 3136.
When you render the file what options do you choose?

Make sure your project properties match your video files properties.
From Settings – Preferences (F6) Tick-Show Messenger when inserting first video,
Start a new project and add a video file.

I have just run a quick test and found a different number of frames using the Optimiser?????
Do not use the Optomiser………….

Try Share Create Video File Same as First Video.
Or Same as Project Settings

These created a file with the same number of frames as original

[Milos]

Hi Trevor,
I did it but it does not work. When I render without title, the output lenght is exactly the same as input: 3134 frames (I tried all 3 options : optimizer,as 1.clip, as project setting). When I put a short title to title track, the result is just the same, as it was with optimizer, regardles of my choice: create videofile as 1. video or same as project setting - 3136frames, it means 2+. I am sure that when the properties of my project are the same as of the videclip, then the soft always does the same rendering, regardless of any of these 3 options ( create video as 1.clip, create as project setting or mpeg optimizer). In my case these 3 options always took the same amount of time and the result is the same. I think the problem is inside the software and it is not able to do seamless transition between rendered and nonrendered part of videoclip. The interesting thing is the fact that I have never had problem at the beginning of the rendered part, it is always at the end.