Video / Audio Synchronization Findings

[oka]

Hello folks, am back again on the issue of not having my video and audio to synchronize after rendering. About end of last year when I first brought this issue, I was made to believe that I do not have a “good” or “powerful” enough system to handle what I was doing. Now, with the chart below, could someone please explain to me what is happening here?

[skier-hughes]

What are all the file types in the movie?
WHat happens if you just use one file type?
Is hd video converter actually converting the videos to something else which means they stay in sync? I don't know this programme.
What is the file output type from both programmes?

[oka]

They are all ".MPG" file types.

[Ken Berry]

It still does not explain, though, why you are the only user reporting this -- or at least one of the few users, though I can't specifically recall anyone else reporting OOS problems with X3 or X4... No doubt you will correct me on this, but it still has not been a major issue.

EDIT: I can actually correct myself! No sooner had I finished the above than I found another user complaining about OOS video and audio using X4... http://forum.corel.com/EN/viewtopic.php ... 15#p226415

[oka]

First of all, I am in about fifteen forums online from software, automobile, cameras and health. The one main issue with some users is the way their posts are titled. Some titles don’t seem to relate to what is posted. Some other issue is the very different ways we relate or call-out our issues. I call it “sync” someone on this forum called it “lag”, another one called it “delay”. We are all different. When I typed “sync”, I got lots of hits (I did not try other words). For you to just find out someone else (so many others) have been having the same issue makes me feel silly in a way. I came to the forum to learn, if I know it all, I won’t bother to join. If the issue is the operator, yes, I am very willing to change, am not perfect (still work in progress). I have been having problems, I was told I do not have a good enough hardware, now I have a good enough hardware, now is me. The not-synching issue is not new to any audio/video component and VideoStudio is not a perfect application to be immune to such issue at hand. If I were to just keep quiet and not find out where I am wrong, then it won’t be practical. I purchased the product to use and do some hubby-work. I am a hardcore AudoCAD user and have been through a lot of code re-writing by Autodesk on their software though the users inputs, so VideoStudio can’t be any exception. I have read a handful of modifications made by Ulead and Corel through these years to make better their software. With AudoCAD, till current version 12, a few issues have been the user. Whichever it might be, it should be corrected to have better software. I use AutoCAD for work and Corel’s products for hubbies and I WILL like to enjoy what I am doing especially now that all my ‘toys’ are all HD controllable.

The best way to find out what the issue might be is to go another route. I will go on line and download a video file, edit and render it to eliminate the video source issue maybe my video are the issues. But if that is the case, the converter did not have any issue with it.

Still, no one commented on my initial question with regard the report I have on the chart, on why VideoStudio did not sync while the other converter synchronized. Sure someone would say ‘why not then use the one that synched’. The answer would be that VS is used to edit, create menus and fancy-up the project while the converter would not. That’s why I am using VS because the manufacturer said it will do all that. So, am on the right track (I feel).

I just got a Nikon D5100 DSLR camera. I will capture to fill the memory card, about 20 minutes of HD video, then I will transfer it to my PC, edit, menu and render it. One of the files I had issue with was from my Sony HDR-CX12 (HD) camcorder, while some files are from friends.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

UPDATE:
Just took some videos with the DSLR and found out it produces H.264 (video) and PCM (audio) encoders, so it won't be a good file to test (compare) with. Also, the audio showed a bit rate of 0 kbps, though the video is at 19.6 Mbps. So the DSLR is not a good one to try with.

I have been online looking for a good video to download. All am seeing are HD Vidoes with very low video bit rate. I will keep searching to find something. I am looking for something in the video bit rate range of about 15 Mbps (min.) at 1920x1080 and a 27.97 frame rate. Also, the file should be as large as possible. The downloading would just take a longer time.

Keep you posted.

[Ken Berry]

Video and audio falling out of sync was certainly a significant problem with earlier versions of VS, so much so that, with your current problem, I automatically used the contraction we developed for the problem: OOS (out of sync). So I am by no means denying it was a problem. It's just that, as I said, it has not been a common one reported with the most recent versions, and not with high def video.

The common causes for the problem in those older versions were predominantly three: weak computer; smart rendering; and perhaps most significantly, workflow. By the latter, I mean that people who finished their editing and jumped straight into the burn module (Share > Create Disc) seemed to have more problems with OOS than users who first produced a new video file from their project (Share > Create Video File). A number of us old fogeys in fact still follow the latter workflow. Apart from anything else, converting your project into a video file allows you to play it back and identify any problems, including OOS.

So which workflow do you have?

One of the other significant ways to avoid OOS in those days was to turn off SmartRender. This was regarded as being a bad development by many since as we all know, mpegs of any flavour are rather lossy, and so too many renders means loss of quality. Others would argue, however -- and they did! -- that if you did your editing and then rendered to a new file, without SmartRender on, would probably not show any quality loss visible to the naked eye. Whatever the case on that, it certainly seemeds to fix OOS problems for some users. I mention this since you are talking about testing high def video. It's just that with versions X2 and X3 in particular, some users were having problems with blips after transitions, particularly with AVCHD video -- though some also claimed it happened with HDV. X4 seems to have gotten around those problems. But my own suggestion at the time was for people to avoid using SmartRender. Again, my argument was that if you maintained high quality settings and rendered only once or even twice, high def video was unlikely to lose any quality you could actually detect with the naked eye. Whether this has any effect for people suffering OOS, though, I can't say, because as I noted at the outset, OOS has not been a major problem with recent versions or with high def video.

[skier-hughes]

What are all the file types in the movie?
WHat happens if you just use one file type?
Is hd video converter actually converting the videos to something else which means they stay in sync? I don't know this programme.
What is the file output type from both programmes?

The asnwer to each question mpeg?

In which case we need to know, whch sort of mepg in each case?
It could be the type of mpeg that hcd video convertor is converting to works and the original mpeg file doesn't????

[teknisyan]

Since you are using a trial version, it unlikely that you can install the VS X4 Service Pack 1, anyway, there could be missing codecs in your computer that is why this is happening. You may want to download and update the most common codec VS X4 is using.

Here are some of the codecs that you may want to install.
RealPlayer: http://www.real.com/
DivX: http://www.divx.com/en/software/divx-plus/codec-pack
XviD: http://downloads.xvid.org/downloads/xvidcore-1.3.1.zip
Windows Media Player: http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/wind ... dia-player or just download the Windows Encoder at http://www.microsoft.com/expression/pro ... rview.aspx
QuickTime: http://www.apple.com/quicktime/download/
Direct X: http://on-msn.com/aLrk0j (WinXP)
Direct X: http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/window ... tx-11.aspx

[oka]

Since you are using a trial version, it unlikely that you can install the VS X4 Service Pack 1, anyway, there could be missing codecs in your computer that is why this is happening. You may want to download and update the most common codec VS X4 is using.

No I am not using the trial version. I have X3 but downloaded X4 to compare and know if it would make any difference.

I have the current DirectX, RealPlayer, Windows Media Player.
I don't think I have the DivX, XviD. Are these two vital part of audio and video rendering?

Thanks.

[skier-hughes]

They are if you are using xvid.avi or divx.avi files.

[oka]

They are if you are using xvid.avi or divx.avi files.

Please what is the difference between the two files you mentioned and capturing a file with my capture card to my computer in AVI file extension?

Come to think of it. In the past, I used to do all my captures in AVI and I never had problems. The only thing is it took lots of space (which I have more than enough hard drive space to store in). You have subliminally brought up an idea for me to use (capture) AVI file (instead of in MPEG) to see if the audio/video will synch where I had issues.

Skier-hughes thanks for the thought!

[Ken Berry]

The main difference is that DivX is a commercial operation, and XVid an open source one (hence its use of DivX spelt backwards!) But both are variants of the mpeg-4 format which use the wrapper .avi extension.

Unfortunately, .avi -- apart from pure or raw .avi -- is used as the extension for over 800 different formats. Raw .avi is huge -- 65 GB for an hour of video. DV is another .avi format, and while compressed, it is still large at 13 GB per hour of video. That is perhaps the format you are thinking of. But at the other end of the spectrum are the much more compressed formats like DivX/XVid which provide quite high quality but in very much smaller files. Typically, they are used to squeeze 90 minute (commercial) movies onto a single CD.

[oka]

Ken, thanks for the education - the learning never ends. Good information though.
Actually, when I used to capture videos and hour of video gives me about the 85GB you mentioned.

Thanks again for the info!

[oka]

I don't think there is a definite answer to this question, but I'll ask anyway - one never knows!

Are there "specific" or "standard" properties a video file should have? That is, for standard home or commercial video quality. What range should one be within to have the quality of video with respect to the medium been used; like what range should a HD video have to be "HD", and what should a DVD have, etc? From my knowledge, would it be right to say that a standard DVD file should be not less than VBR of 8,000 kbps and audio (?), and a HD file not less than VBR of 16,000 kbps and audio (?). The minimum ABR us what am not sure about. Maybe am out of my mind here, but to write any of those medias, what properties should I have , minimum, to have the status of the medium am using? The properties am referring to would be the Video and Audio bit rates, respectively.

Thanks in advance

[Ken Berry]

The problem, if it is such, with your question is that it ignores the fact that there are international standards for all these things, and they don't tend to stress a minimum bitrate but a maximum one. And unfortunately, especially in the fast moving HD world, that tends to change. A standard def DVD, for instance, can only have a maximum *combined* (video AND audio) bitrate of 10,000 kbps. But in theory it can have quite a low bitrate, though the quality much below 4000 kbps would be pretty awful. A lower bitrate means lower quality but also means that you can burn more video on a disc.

An AVCHD hybrid HD disc, burned on a standard DVD but in Blu-Ray format using the AVCHD format, has a maximum bitrate of 18,000 kbps, and at that rate you can only burn about 20 or 22 minutes of video to a single layer disc. Again, though, you can use much lower bitrates, but the quality will fall off but you can fit more video on.

A Blu-Ray disc typically will use a bitrate of 35 Mbps or higher for high quality, but again, a lower bitrate = lower quality = more room.

For the record, and to illustrate the rapid changing nature of international standards, AVCHD originally started off with a maximum bitrate of around 16 Mbps, but was soon overtaken by 18 Mbps. Then about a year or so ago, a new maximum of 24 Mbps was established. But just a couple of months ago, this changed again to cover camcorders which shoot true HD AVCHD video at 50p (PAL) or 60p (NTSC) full frames per second (rather than interleaved which was what existed before for the most part). Now the maximum bitrate for such video, plus 3D HD video, is 27 Mbps.

HDV video uses a constant bitrate of 25 Mbps.

As for home made or commercial, it is a bit like comparing chalk and cheese. Home made discs are actually burned and from video which in VS can only be subject, if VBR, to two passes to work out the best bitrate for different parts of the video. Commercial video on the other hand is printed directly to disc, and the video has been processed through equipment costing hundreds of thousands of dollars and analysed through mulitple passes to maximise the best bitrate/space utlisation.