X4 1920x1080/50p

[Oti]

Worked fine to process the 1920x1080/50p MTS-file and when I check the processed file properties it says 50 fps, ok I thought, but the result looks more like every second frame of the original video is displayed twice in the processed (shared) file = 25 fps in real life. I guess if I step through the processed file frame by frame I would see each second frame from the original file duplicated.

I have uploaded the two files in a zip-file here:

http://boggen2.mine.nu/oti/videos.zip

Please download and comment. Is this an error from my side or is X4 simply using every second frame from the original MTS-file and output it twice, resulting in 25 fps in real life?

Very strange.

//Stefan

[Trevor Andrew]

Hi

I downloaded your two video files. One a .MTS and the other a m2t
I am able to view them in Video Studio without problems.
The difference appears to be the Video Data rate/Bit Rate 25999 to 18000
and the audio bit rate 384 to 256.

The frame rate in both videos is 50 fps.

The video pans from left to right which allows you to easily identify the different frames, I cannot identify any duplicate frames.

The rendered video clip Test.m2t looks ok to my eyes.

If you are viewing the newly rendered file via the library then Smart Proxy files will need to be created otherwise the playback may be poor.
Right click a clip and select Create Proxy File or drag the clip to the timeline.

[Ken Berry]

I am downloading your videos and may comment separately on them. But getting back to your question about whether to use Upper or Lower Field First or Frame Based, your 50p footage is true progressive, single frame by single frame video, not interleaved. As such, you should always use Frame Based when trying to output at 50p.

[Trevor Andrew]

Ken

Having downloaded the video files provided by Stefan I managed to use Make Movie Templates Manager Add function and create a template

They appear to use these properties.

MPEG files
24 bits, 1920 x 1080, 50 fps
Frame-based
(HDMV-PAL), 16:9
H.264 Video
Video data rate: Variable (Max. 25999 kbps)
Audio data rate: 256 kbps
Dolby Digital Audio, 48 KHz, 2/0(L,R)

As you know I have yet to take the leap into Hd Video, my experience relying on sample downloads.
So am I doing this right, cos your comment earlier seemed to indicate that you cannot create a template to the above settings.

[Ken Berry]

My comment was based on my own, and others', experimentation in a thread a few months ago about how to output 50/60p video. The obvious solution was simply to make a template using the Add function. But it simply did not work, just returning a default DVD template. Moreover, Corel confirmed the only AVCHD that VS could output in 50/60p was 1280 x 720p. But we found a way of outputting mpeg transport stream files, in an avi wrapper, using 1920 x 1080 at 50/60p... I will, of course, try it again, and will be happy to eat my words. But it will have to wait for a little while as I have to run out now and register my car, and so won't be back for a couple of hours...

Incidentally, I had no trouble playing the files Oti made available. The original mts played perfectly and smoothly. The m2t, on the other hand, played with a visible flicker, but I am not initially sure that is because of a doubling of frames, though it could be. What mystifies me, though, is that in its Properties it is shown as an H.264 file, yet it has the .m2t extension, which of course is for HDV not AVCHD. So that too could be the cause of the flickering -- though I would like to know exactly how it was produced.

EDIT: I took a minute and in fact managed to produce a Template of the mts file. I am at a loss to explain why this is now possible since I don't recall Corel offering any fix for it. I must search back and see if I can find the original test file -- I suspect it was an .m2ts AVCHD file, but that should not have made any difference... Or should it???

[Ken Berry]

I have been out for a while doing chores, but now am back and have had a bit of an experiment with that template Trevor, and now me, have successfully made. I inserted the mts file a couple of times just to make it a bit of a project and transitions were added. Then I selected Share > Create Video File, and then selected the template I had made. It went through quickly and produced a smooth, high quality video. And perhaps not unexpectedly -- though still surprisingly to me! -- the Properties of the new file were indeed identical to the original, including the 50p framerate. The only difference is that instead of using the mts extension, VS has substituted this with .mpg (which I know riles at least one other user!)

I suppose, however, the question also needs to be asked how you intend to play the new video. As far as I am aware, the international Blu-Ray standard does not currently accept 50/60p video in a frame size any larger than 1280 x 720p, though I imagine that will probably change quickly now that the AVCHD standard has already been upgraded.

But I am happy to say I just copied the completed new video onto a USB stick drive, and inserted that into my PlayStation 3 (which of course an excellent Blu-Ray player). The PS3 is in turn connected to my full HD 1920 x 1080p HDTV via HDMI. And it had no trouble at all detecting and playing your video smoothly and in its original quality.

[Oti]

Hi Ken,

Thanks for taking the time!

I have now confirmed the following:

File Original.mts = the source file from the camera (Sony HDR-CX700) at 1920x1080/50p. This file is all ok and at the rate of 50 fps.

File Test.m2t = 50 fps BUT
Frame
0 & 1 same content
2 & 3 same content
4 & 5 same content
6 & 7 same content
8 & 9 same content
on so on...

So looks like X4 is using every second frame from the orignal source file and share it at 50 fps but when using the same frame twice the actual result ends up as 25 fps in real life.

My timeline in X4 is 0..24 /second so it's not possible to look at the files in X4 frame by frame, I had to look at the files in a program capable of actually showing it frame by frame. Anyway, when playing the files in Windows Media Player or other software you can clearly see each frame as the clip is a panning, so easy to identify each frame. The orignal file pans smoothly, while the test.mt2 clearly shows a reduced framerate (remember frame 0 & 1 = same, 1 & 2 = same on so on).

I guess as long as X4 is not capable of showing/dealing with the original source file in true 0-49 frames/s, this might be a problem.

Any suggestions how to create a workaround?

//Stefan

[Ken Berry]

But as I said above, you have converted it to the wrong format anyway. The m2t file is an HDV one, and is clearly a mess. Your original mts is not, and my experiment (and Trevor's) showed you can make a template with your original properties and output them at a proper, smooth, perfect 50p with all other properties correct.

Why did you convert to m2t? I think you were really after m2ts which is high def AVCHD like your original. But doing that conversion is likely to produce the same result as the m2t. So what I am saying is make the template the way Trevor outlined, and then do your editing. Then when that is finished, select Share > Create Video File > [new template] with the latter appearing under the name you assigned it when you created it towards the bottom of the drop down menu...

[Oti]

I created the template as described by Trevor and I still receive the same output with 50fps but with every second frame of the original videoclip duplicated resulting of 25 fps in real life. I'm I doing something completly wrong here?

Pic03.jpg (36.32 KiB) Viewed 3631 times

The processed file extension is m2t on the file I get.

//Stefan

[Oti]

Ken,

Do you have the processed file available somewhere, so I can download it and check it frame by frame?

//Stefan

[Trevor Andrew]

Hi Stefan

You can use Video Studio to view the clip frame by frame.
How………………
Using the mouse click the “00” frame of the digital clock hr:min:sec:frames(24)
The numbers will flash showing they have been selected.
Navigate to the next frame using either the black triangles to the right or press your key board up/down arrow keys.

As the video pans right you can clearly see the next frame being different. After one second the pan is moving quite quickly easily allowing you to see the frames changing.

Now I have looked again and cannot see any duplicate frames.

I am however having difficulty playing the video on my pc playback is a little intermittent, not sure if that’s the files or my pc? however what I see looks good quality.

Ken

Last night (UK) I created the template using the laptop with Vista, today I am using the desktop XP, I am unable to create a template.
I may try transferring the template from Laptop to desktop?

Do you think the X4 service pack has change the HD 50p options??

[Oti]

Hi Ken,

Yes, 50p changed with SP1, when I installed SP1.

I'm aware of stepping frame by frame using the digital clock, but my timeline is only showing 25 frames/s, so when stepping through my original 50 fps mts-file I only see every second frame of the original mts 50 fps file. Is your timeline showing 50 frames/s?

I would very much like to download your processed file and study it frame by frame on my other software capable of that. So far all of my processed files has been 50 fps, but each second frame from the orignal mts 50 fps file displayed twice in the processed file, resulting in 25 fps in real life.

//Stefan

[Trevor Andrew]

Hi Stefan

Upps sorry about that , you are of course correct the timeline does show 25 frames per second.

However I think there was a method of setting 50, a work-round posted by others, not sure how, but will give it some thought.

Read this post referring to 50fps timeline.

http://forum.corel.com/EN/viewtopic.php ... ps#p215871

[Ken Berry]

Dear me... now we have Trevor correcting himself? And I don't think he had to. As he said, he used the Add method to create his template. As you will see, I am using Win 7 and X4. On your first photo above, Oti, you will note that at the bottom of the buttons is one labelled 'Add'. Click that and you will be asked to give a new name to the new template. Call it something you will remember (e.g. True 50p). Then above that is another little window with "..." to its right in another button. Click that and browse to where your original mts file is stored, and select it. Click OK. You should now get a dialogue box with exactly the same properties as your original video, including the true 50 fps. Click close, and in future when you select Share > Create Video File, inn the bottom of the drop down menu there should be 'True 50p' as one of the selections for output. Make sure, though, you never try to edit this new template. If you do, it will revert to bog standard DVD, and you will have to start all over again.

Not sure where I can post the video to so you can download it. I don't have an account with anyone. But I have just checked it yet again and it definitely shows in the timeline with true 50 fps. And as I say, the playback is absolutely perfect, with no flickering or anything else indicating a doubling up of frames... I have expanded it, moreover, to frame by frame view, and each frame shows slight movement from the previous one, and as Trevor suggested, each frame moves up in number from 0 to one to two and so on. There is definitely no doubling...

[Ron P.]

Ok, since you guys have this solved, I'm going through something out there that's puzzling me about this.

1. We that tested X4, and have communicated with Jan, have been told by him that VS is not capable of using the 50/60fps as project settings. That the program would use the typical settings, yet be able to render the project using those frame rates, correct?

2. Since the clip in the timeline shows true 50fps, even though a work-around had to be used, then I wonder why this could not be a part of the options offered for project settings along with the 2 we've had MPEG and AVI, both Standard-Def, for so long? If like you pointed out Ken, the clip in the timeline clearly shows 50fps, then incorporating that should not be a problem.

Perhaps an email to Jan pointing this out, and prodding him to approach the fix-it team.... Naw, we don't know what we're talking about, probably would be too much for them to handle, and they would want to use it as a money grabber for the next version.