Tif and Png? Just curious what's the preference and why.

[SyncroScales]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exchangeab ... ile_format

It says PNG doesn't support EXIF.

I am new to photo editing and the image manipulating. Why would a person need EXIF? Just for the camera information? Or is there some application? I see these options sometimes and don't really know how they relate to what I am doing.

With PNG being able to retain, transparency and translucency: I don't know how to ask this, but, how can it? I'm thinking a project file of some sort can...What does Tiff turn it into? White?

[LindaSue]

With PNG being able to retain, transparency and translucency: I don't know how to ask this, but, how can it? I'm thinking a project file of some sort can...What does Tiff turn it into? White?

Someone smarter than I am will have to explain how PNG can do this. I have no idea how, I just know that it does if you use the right settings. TIF files don't support layers so the images are flattened on saving. PNG files can only have one layer but they can also have alpha channel transparency in that single layer.

[LeviFiction]

TIFF files do support layers, just not in PSP so that point is kind of moot. But TIFF also supports transparency because of it's ability to support an Alpha channel. But again, not in PSP. But then again it's supported in very few places anyway for a TIFF, one of those less than compatible additions to the format talked about earlier.

Actually that's not entirely true either, but I'll get to that at the end.

In fact TIFF, BMP, and PNG are all capable of saving a transparent channel or layer. If you're wondering about GIF that only defines a single color as transparent and doesn't follow this format. PNG also has this capability but because it can save an Alpha channel we don't mention that.

Normally all images are saved in RGB. That's Red Green Blue, each color having a possible value of 0-255. Each color is also referred to as a channel. These formats, TIFF, PNG, BMP, they are all capable of saving an extra channel known as an Alpha channel. This alpha channel also holds values ranging from 0-255 where 0 is completely transparent and 255 is completely opaque. This channel is used to do "color mixing" to give the appearance of transparency. Similar to applying a layer mask in PSP.

If you want transparency use PNG because PSP supports it and so does most of the tech world. Not all of the tech world though, there are still some applications and such that don't support PNG transparency.

Oh and you can't paste in a PNG with transparency in PSP, so if you found clipart on the web that you wanted to use you'd have to save it to the computer and open it manually in PSP to keep that transparency. It's one of those fun things where you fight between what is supported by the format and what is supported by the application. Lots of fun.

Now as for TIFF transparency. Again TIFF supports an Alpha Channel but not every program can read it and it's very unlikely that any program that can read it will automatically apply the color mixing. PSP can make use of the alpha channel support in most image files, including TIFF. You can use this to save a mask or a selection into the image for use later. So if you make a selection that you want to save or if you make a mask that you want to save but you want to save it as a TIFF file and not a PSPImage file (why you would ever want to do that is beyond me) it's actually very easy to do. With the selection made or the mask layer selected go to the menu. For selections go to the seletion menu and select 'Save Selection" and under the list choose "As Alpha Channel." And you can name it whatever you want.

To save a mask you go to the layers menu and select Save or Load mask and under that list choose "As Alpha Channel."

Now when you save your image those alpha channels will be included. And if you have the image open in PSP you can reload those masks and selections from the menu in the same way. But again only a select few programs would even have the appropriate access to these channels and they are mostly only useful in PSP so it's kind of a silly thing. Though for selections it's kind of useful, but I always save my selections to a disk.

[SyncroScales]

Great. Thanks for all the info.

So this is what the Alpha channel, and all this channel stuff is relating to. I had no idea.

I will figure out what image format I am going to stick with, but I think the tiff format is what I need.

Maybe for certain projects, I will save png and use project files more.

I was going to ask soemthing else, but forgot.

[SyncroScales]

I think I remember.

So what does the transparency and translucency look like? I know what they do look like. But does anyone have examples, or a web-page I can check out?

When is transparency and translucency used? I am thinking more with animation, potentially in graphic design or sales.

[LeviFiction]

Just keep in mind PNGs don't have to have tranparency. So both formats are excellent for just plain photo work.

Transparency and translucency can be used in games, UI development for applications, clip art and graphic design, web-page buttons and elements, or even in photo editing and manipulation to produce cutouts from photos, or add translucent bubbles or glass around something and things like that. So while transparency is used in graphical animations where you don't want to have a background or you want the background to show through, it has a wide range of uses and possibilities that really just depend on what you want to do with it.


I've used a few stock photos where the original photographer had cutout the characters and saved them as PNGs with transparency so that I wouldn't have to when I combined them into my own work.

Go to Deviantart.com to see a few examples of where people have used transparency and translucency.

[SyncroScales]

Thanks for the link. I checked it out and understand.

I was wondering how to use these options/looks.

I assume that I can work with or save transparency or transluency with tiff files, probably using layers. But from what has been posted: I think an exported PNG file will allow me to open the transparency or translucency later, but the tiff exported file will flatten it all together, and I cannot RE-access it, right?

If I have an image like a jpg, or tiff, or whatever: I am aware I can remove certain colours, or make it transparent or translucent. But if I exported it, then that is it, it is flat? But if I exported the PNG file, it should remain transparent or translucent, with the proper exporting settings?

I would want to use these techniques, but I thought it was all about layers, not file formats.

[LeviFiction]

If a file format does not support transparency and translucency then that's all there is to it. PSP is forced to flatten everything and fill in the transparent areas with White. So if you intend to keep the transparency and translucency you need to save in a format that will maintain the tranparency.

Layers only come into play inside PSP. Layers are treated different between the different programs because they are and editing construct.

So I think this is where you're getting confused, though I could be wrong. Files when they are saved to your harddrive are saved in a special format. The limitations of what you can do with them are set inside the format itself. However, once these files are opened in PSP the file format doesn't matter anymore because PSP isn't working with the file format it's working with the actual image data. So while inside the program the transparency translucency is determined by layers. Raster layers can be transparent but background layers can't.

Once its saved out, however, PSP has to conform to the file format that you use. Now if you have transparency in your layers and want to save that transparency there are a few formats that can handle it, but most are program specific like PSD (Photoshop document) or PSPImage (PaintShop Pro Image) that most other people can't open up without those programs or another that can read them.

TIFF can save transparency but only in an obscure version of the Base TIFF format that PSP does not support so PSP cannot save out transparency to TIFF. JPEG does not support transparency either so saving into either of those formats the transparency will be replaced with white. Of course you can flatten the image yourself and use any background color you wanted if White would just look horrible to you.

PNG, with the proper settings, will export with transparency and was designed to do so. So save to the format that's appropriate for your work.

However, only save to PNG, TIFF, or JPEG, when you're done. Otherwise save as PSPIMage because this will save all of your settings, masks, selections, blend modes, adjustment layers, regular layers, and so on.

So, to recap.
File Formats have limitations

Images must be saved in a file-format to be saved onto the harddrive so save in a format that matches what you need.

JPEG - Common small size image format everyone can use - lossy
PNG - Larger but still small image format that's gaining popularity and supports transparency - lossless
TIFF - Common image format that most can use - lossless or lossy depending on settings

When the image is opened in a program you can do anything to it that the program allows.

If you are still editing the photo save in PSPImage format to retain all settings and options.

[LindaSue]

Here are a couple examples of what you can do with PNG transparency. These are actually JPGs because I wanted to show you how the PNG images look when placed on top of a background image.

In the first example, I made the fabric of the embroidered picture look translucent. It's not truly translucent though. Rather than just turning down the opacity of the fabric, which would make it look faded out, I applied a special mask that removes every other pixel so that you can see what's behind the fabric.



I used the same mask on the gem in the brooch below. After removing the background around the brooch photo, and applying the mask to the gem, I saved it as a PNG file so that I can use it in the collages that I make for greeting cards, etc.

[Ron P.]

So how would a person create such a special mask?

[LindaSue]

I made a square and filled every other pixel with either white or a shade of gray. Black is too dark and some images come out better with a light gray and some look better with a darker gray mask. Basically what I do is make a selection of the object that I want to make translucent then flood fill the selection with the mask on a new layer. I add an empty white layer below the one with the mask filled selection and merge those two layers. Next, I create a new mask layer from it and do a Selection from Mask. Next I make the object layer active and press Delete to remove every other pixel within the selection. It's kind of hard to explain quickly, and there are some tweaks that may need to be made later to the object. I've got tutorials typed up for the embroidered fabric as well as the brooch if you're interested in the details.

Here is one of my masks:

[Kathy_9]

@LindaSue - very nice technique!!

[LindaSue]

@LindaSue - very nice technique!!

Thanks, Kathy.

By the way, the mask image doesn't really need to be that large. A 4x4 pixel image would suffice. I only made it that size to make it easier to see what it is when browsing for images.

[Ron P.]

I've got tutorials typed up for the embroidered fabric as well as the brooch if you're interested in the details.

I'm sure the members would love to have a tutorial on how to do this. I know I would. You could post it in the Imaging and Web Products Tutorials forum. Just try include PSP X3, or PSP, in the title so when members go to that forum, they can scroll through the titles, and it can be found much easier.

BTW, I've added you to the Tutorials Writers Group, so you can have permission to post in that forum. Thanks for volunteering to provide a tutorial or two..

[LindaSue]

It took quite some time to format the tutorials in the forum code and get all the screen shots and images uploaded but they're now posted. Here's the link to them on the forum that Ron mentioned: Translucent Fabric and Gem Tutorials