MPEG encoding and advanced settings PROBLEM SOLVED

[Radioman62]

This night I tried the Mainconcept reference 2.2 standalone encoder. It can also encode an mpeg2 file from an uncompressed avi and an AC3 wav file. The application is free and uses DEMO mode for all standards exept the plugins you buy. If I want the two plugins I need, the mpeg2 and Dolby Digital professional (AC3) encoder, I have to spend 740 Euro

I have not given up yet, still quoting myself in this ongoing pain to find whats wrong. I hope there still is someone who follow and reads what I'm trying and struggling with.

It looks as if I got me a good mpeg file tonight from the very expensive new Standalone Mainconcept encoder but I was wrong!
I didn't wait for the encoding to get finished and a closer look today and a a burn trough VS "Share and burn disc" revealed the same washed out black and also there was no 5.1 audio either. So that wasn't a sollution, even if it could have been very expensive one
There is also no such setting as "Chroma 16-232" so that was a dead end ...... again.

But right now I'm on to something else that trigged my attention:

The only thing that I can add is that PC images (graphics, animation movies...) use 0-256 by default. Digital video has a 16-235 default for the luma range. Maybe depending on the first file (PC or video) VS sets 0 or 16 as black

Seems like trevor andrew allready tried this but I haven't

I'll be back

[skier-hughes]

It looks as if I got me a good mpeg file tonight from the very expensive new Standalone Mainconcept encoder but I was wrong!
I didn't wait for the encoding to get finished and a closer look today and a a burn trough VS "Share and burn disc" revealed the same washed out black and also there was no 5.1 audio either. So that wasn't a sollution, even if it could have been very expensive one

Odd, if you just burn ensuring that VS uses your dvd compliant files it won't do any recoding, it should just burn your file to a disc as is.
I'm really busy this week with work, but if I get 5 mins I'll encode a file with procoder and use VS to burn it and see what I come up with.

[Radioman62]

Hi skier-hughes

There is absolutely no recoding going on but i did a flaw when it comes to the settings for 5.1 audio, before encoding. I did it all over again just now and the 5.1 audio was Ok when using the standalone Mainconcept and then using VS to burn. Still, no black when it should be. Not in VLC player or the simulator player before burning in VS and not on the readymade DVD when played on any other player at all.

I have two options for the moment
1. I may have to revert to use outside encoding with the old standalone Mainconcept or Procoder and lose my 5.1 audio.
2. Try to look at some other competive software where I can get descent video and maybe no 5.1

It looks like I have to choose the first alternative FTM.

[Ron P.]

If you've grown accustom to VS or MSP, then other programs may cause a little frustration trying to figure out how to do the same things you're used to in VS. I've tried about every consumer level program, even own another, and a few pro-sumer/professional. While it seems that the b/w color is a problem with VS, about every other program of the same level, will have similar problems, and others.

I agree that Corel is behind the 8-ball compared to most of the competition. VS lacks the ability to use moving paths, proper usage of transitions in overlay tracks, effective use of Chroma, Luma, Color keys, use of video mattes, marking of library clips used in the timeline, the list could go on. To do simple PiP in some of the competitor's programs is not quite as quick and easy as it has been in VS. In some if you want to use what we're used to as color clips, you must create actual images in some other illustration software, video fx and filters are not always customizable, and so on.

Basically VS has always been a simple to use program, developed and priced for the home hobbyist. The encoders used is not going to be up to the par of some more expensive piece of software, nor should we expect it. The Main Concept stand-alone encoder is a task-specific utility that costs almost 3x that of the whole VS program. How can we expect VS to offer the same for less? That again is like expecting Sony to sell us the $99K camcorder for only $500, they would be out of business in no time.

Finally since reading that Trevor has tried to replicate this b/w issue and was not able to, I would say that the problem may be more with your TV and not the program. There's more than just VS encoding involved. Is your computer monitor properly calibrated? Most pro photographers buy expensive calibration programs, so they know that when they work on their photos they will be printing the correct colors. I've stood in front of the television display at a Wal-Mart store, and noticed significant differences in each TV.

[Radioman62]

If you've grown accustom to VS or MSP, then other programs may cause a little frustration trying to figure out how to do the same things you're used to in VS. I've tried about every consumer level program, even own another, and a few pro-sumer/professional. While it seems that the b/w color is a problem with VS, about every other program of the same level, will have similar problems, and others.

Yes I know. Been there as well.

The Main Concept stand-alone encoder is a task-specific utility that costs almost 3x that of the whole VS program. How can we expect VS to offer the same for less?

We can, absolutely, if you see my comments above. The latest "reference" Mainconcept is as bad as VS when it comes to the video and black level.

Finally since reading that Trevor has tried to replicate this b/w issue and was not able to, I would say that the problem may be more with your TV and not the program.

Then it shouldn't be all perfect when I use the right chroma settings in the old standalone Mainconcept v.1.05 (2005), should it?

There's more than just VS encoding involved. Is your computer monitor properly calibrated?

That is not relevant at all. My DV AVI files from the camera look absolutely gorgeous on both my PC's monitor and the TV set.
My Tv set', which I have calibrated with testsignals and are using for other DVD movies, and also a HT PC Hometheater I built, are perfectly in shape and have given me plenty of perfectly looking movies for two years now.

I've stood in front of the television display at a Wal-Mart store, and noticed significant differences in each TV.

Thats because they can't properly tune their equipment and sometimes one TV set are tuned "away" so that they will sell another one they can earn more money on. Sometimes two TV set's of the same model look very different. I've been in that business and have also worked a couple of years as TV/video homelectronics repairman in the -80's.

Right now I'm into doing several MPEG clips I will upload to my own site so everyone can download and play on their PC and also burn a DVD to look at if you are curious.
Lets see what comes out of that. Stay tuned

[Radioman62]

Here we go with the clips
With this comment I hope something will clear up, because I'm beginning to get very exhausted and have to give up somewhere.

I have here tried several encodings from the same mini-dv clip to show you what I mean. There is only video and no audio in the clips.

PLEASE RIGHT CLICK and DOWNLOAD THE FILES VIA "SaveTarget As..."
(If you Left click most browsers tries to play the clip and mpeg files doesn't play with some player plugin's in your browser. f.e. sometimes you can get a Quicktime logo with a question mark inside)

1. The uncompressed Microsoft AVI file straight out from VS X4.(zipped)
2. The VS X4 mpeg, Q70 (default) and CBR 7500
3. The old Standalone Mainconept v.1.05 (2005) "Input video is RGB16-235" is ticked and CBR 7500, No Q setting found.
4. Same as nr.3 but "Input video is RGB16-235" is unticked.
5. The new standalone Mainconcept "reference" v.2.2, "balanced" Q and CBR 7500, everything else default.
6. Procoder 3, "Master Q" and CBR7500, everything else default.

I burned a DVD with the clips in the order from 2 to 6 above and got this result on my DVD player and TV set.

2= black is not really black
3= Good video
4= black is not really black
5= black is not really black
6= very good video

It would be great if some of you hardcore videoenthusiasts tried to fiddle with and look at the filmclips. Maybe do a new mpeg file inside your version of VS and burn to see how it looks

Have a nice day. I will be zoombie at work tomorrow ... again

[Natal]

If you've grown accustom to VS or MSP, then other programs may cause a little frustration trying to figure out how to do the same things you're used to in VS. I've tried about every consumer level program, even own another, and a few pro-sumer/professional. While it seems that the b/w color is a problem with VS, about every other program of the same level, will have similar problems, and others.

I agree that Corel is behind the 8-ball compared to most of the competition. VS lacks the ability to use moving paths, proper usage of transitions in overlay tracks, effective use of Chroma, Luma, Color keys, use of video mattes, marking of library clips used in the timeline, the list could go on. To do simple PiP in some of the competitor's programs is not quite as quick and easy as it has been in VS. In some if you want to use what we're used to as color clips, you must create actual images in some other illustration software, video fx and filters are not always customizable, and so on.

Basically VS has always been a simple to use program, developed and priced for the home hobbyist. The encoders used is not going to be up to the par of some more expensive piece of software, nor should we expect it. The Main Concept stand-alone encoder is a task-specific utility that costs almost 3x that of the whole VS program. How can we expect VS to offer the same for less? That again is like expecting Sony to sell us the $99K camcorder for only $500, they would be out of business in no time.

Finally since reading that Trevor has tried to replicate this b/w issue and was not able to, I would say that the problem may be more with your TV and not the program. There's more than just VS encoding involved. Is your computer monitor properly calibrated? Most pro photographers buy expensive calibration programs, so they know that when they work on their photos they will be printing the correct colors. I've stood in front of the television display at a Wal-Mart store, and noticed significant differences in each TV.

I don't expect them to produce software with all the bells and whistles that commercial software has, but I do expect them to produce consumer software that can deal with output from consumer cameras. Is that an unreasonable expectation? After all, this is supposed to be their business. The revenue potential for a low cost mass produced software package has to exceed that of a high cost low customer base package.

[skier-hughes]

Hi skier-hughes

There is absolutely no recoding going on but i did a flaw when it comes to the settings for 5.1 audio, before encoding. I did it all over again just now and the 5.1 audio was Ok when using the standalone Mainconcept and then using VS to burn. Still, no black when it should be. Not in VLC player or the simulator player before burning in VS and not on the readymade DVD when played on any other player at all.

I have two options for the moment
1. I may have to revert to use outside encoding with the old standalone Mainconcept or Procoder and lose my 5.1 audio.
2. Try to look at some other competive software where I can get descent video and maybe no 5.1

It looks like I have to choose the first alternative FTM.

What is odd is, if main concept produces a file that you say is perfect, VS does no recoding, but the burned dvd has a flaw in the colour, then it is really weird. Does that same file being burned by another authoring app to dvd produce a perfect file?
If no recoding is happening, then VS is only wrapping your mpeg into the dvd compliant VOB wrapper to enable a dvd player to read it, it "shouldn't" change the file in any way.

[Radioman62]

skier-hughes

I don't know if you read the tiny details carefully? There are a lot of them in this thread. I don't think there is any large typo, misleading or inconcistent facts in what I say above. English is not my native languish though, so there may be some bold or bad explenations of all this. But Here we go again.

The old standalone Mainconcept only produce good mpegs when the "RGB is 16-235" is ticked. Good before burning and good after DVD making.
The new standalone Mainconcept doesn't have that option and are as lousy as the inbuilt Mainconcept in VS. Bad before burning and bad after DVD making.
In the PC they look OK when played trough Windows Media player but not when played in VLC or in the simulator player in VS, before making a disc. So I can allready in VS Share tab see if it's any Idé to do a DVD disc.

Can you please take a look at those mpegs above? Make DVD-RW burn and also look at some standalone player before we discuss further? Offcource if you are curious and have the time. Any comments on those files I made this night would have been nice.

Thanks for reading.

[Radioman62]

If no recoding is happening, then VS is only wrapping your mpeg into the dvd compliant VOB wrapper to enable a dvd player to read it, it "shouldn't" change the file in any way.

Absolutely right. Have I said something else? I have to re read again.

Edit
.... Re read. No, in my message from Tue Aug 02, 2011 5:26 pm I said I thought the file I made the night before was OK but it wasn't when I examined it the day after. (the new standalone mainconcept)
Not good before burning and not after. And, offcource, no recoding took place.

[Radioman62]

Problem solved

At last. Even if there actually are large differences in the files I did when played with different players, it's probably so that the once that I thought was bad is the good ones and vice versa. How could it be so?

I did a more troughly test with another TV set and two other DVD players and there was several settings made and a compromise between the two HDMI inputs I use on my TV. One is for the Digital TV receiver and the other comes from my HTPC.
The largest difference came when I adjusted the graphics card RGB for 0-255 instead of 16-235 on the HTPC.

I feel very embarrased but I guess it gives me good Karma to tell everybody that has followed this thread what was wrong. Maybe someone also got a critical eye along the way and look more troughly on there own settings. It's easy to adjust something wrong, even for me, which have "been in the business"

I was stucked in my mind in one direction because I had similar problem several years ago with my old TV set and DVD player. I then often made SVD'S with CCE and maybe I had wrong settings back then and there as well ? ...

Sorry