Blu-Ray Video Formats

[rreynard]

I know this *should* be straight forward, but, it just seems to get more confusing! The AVCHD thread on this topic only deals with two options. However, with the installation of SP1 (VSX4), the options to create a blu-ray video file (assuming 1920x1080 only, though the same options exist for 1440x1080) are now:

Blu-ray (1920 x 1080)
Blu-ray H.264 (1920 x 1080P)
Blu-ray H.264 (1920 x 1080)

Now, I want to create a 'standard' Blu-ray disc of family videos. My camera is a Canon Vixia HF20, recording in 1920x1080 in the '60i' mode. The camera creates AVCHD formatted files. I know I don't want the progressive option, however, what is the difference between the other two options (is it MEG4 vs. AVCHD? If so, what should I choose when creating a new disc?). I want my disc to support as many blu-ray players and HDTV's as possible since I will be giving copies to various family members (meaning I don't want a format that supports only the latest releases of blu-ray players).

[Ken Berry]

The first option creates a Blu-Ray file using Blu-Ray mpeg-2. In other words, your AVCHD (which is HD mpeg-4) would be converted to mpeg-2 -- although using a higher bitrate. But the end result will to all intents and purposes look the same as your AVCHD original. Note, however, that I base the latter on my own experiments with my own video.

You say you are note interested in the second option (Blu-ray H.264 (1920 x 1080P)) but for the record it creates an AVCHD/mpeg-4 file using progressive mode but at 30 fps (PAL 25 fps) as opposed to "full" progressive mode which would be 60 full frames per second.

The third option is probably the one I would choose in your circumstances. Unfortunately, I have been unable to find a specification for your camcorder which shows its maximum bitrate, though I assume, since the camera is now around 2 years old, that it probably films at a maximum of 18 Mbps. If you choose this option, you can reproduce the exact same properties as your original video - indeed, the bitrate used by VS for this option will go up to a maximum of 20 Mbps. So, in other words, you should be seeing exactly the same quality as your original video. (If your camera films at the new standard for AVCHD of 24 Mbps, then you would take a small hit in terms of final quality.)

Both 1 and 3 have always been part of the Blu-Ray standard, so both should be recognised by a wide variety of Blu-Ray players. But you should play around yourself and make a final version in each format to see which gives notionally better quality. You don't need to waste Blu-Ray discs on this. On the final burning page, you can choose "Create Blu-Ray Folders" instead of "Create to Disc". Then when it has finished "burning", you can play back the resulting folder on a software Blu-Ray player on your computer to see how it looks. If you are satisfied with one type over the other, you can then simply transfer the folder to an actual disc.

[pepegota]

I tried option 2 & 3 and both played well. However, when I paused the video, option 3 (1080i) showed rough edges-option 2 (1080P) did not. So, I guess is is option 2 for me.
MediaInfo showed 1920X1080P, Max Bit rate 20 Mbps, Bit Rate Variable. Bit Rate 18.5 Mbps and a Frame Rate of 29.970. To my knowledge there is no 29.970 for the progressive mode, only interlaced. But, it looked a bit better.

[Ken Berry]

It depends on what format of AVCHD you filmed in, I guess. IIRC, pepegota, you have the top of the line Panasonic which actually films in full 60p mode... So if you filmed in that mode, then the conversion to interlaced might accoujnt for the jaggy effect you describe.

To my knowledge there is no 29.970 for the progressive mode, only interlaced.

That may be so for your camera, though I seem to recall such an option as being included in the Panasonic specifications. Maybe it will be contained in your manual. But it is certainly one of the specifications of rreynard's Vixia given on the Canon specifications page for that model. I simply don't know if the final crispness of a video made with that option would appear better than with a 29.97i (i.e. 59.94 half frames per second) speed, though in theory it should since each of the 30 frames would be a solid one instead of alternating half frames interleaved.

[rreynard]

Thanks again for your quick feedback, Ken. I'll go ahead and try the option 3, and then an option 2 (blu-ray discs are cheaper here in the US!).

The formats that my camera offers (from the menu) are 60i, PF24, and PF30.

[Ken Berry]

69i and PF30 are the two options I would be playing with, and notionally they should give much the same final result. The PF30 might be fractionally better because of the full frame effect I mentioned above.

As you probably realise, PF24 is 24p and is suppose to give an effect very much like a movie film as seen in a cinema. But frankly, I am not sure where it fits -- if at all -- in the spectrum of Blu-Ray standards.

[Natal]

The HF20 can record at 24 mbps, so if you are recording in that mode expect to see significant degradation if you are using the H.264 options. The problem is that the output at 24 mbps is allready compressed, and it does that by making "like" areas more "like". Then, when you try to convert to 18 (or 20) mbps, it tries to compress again through the same method. This results in the "like" areas being made even more "like" and you end up with huge and very noticeable giant pixels and other artifacts. The other problem is that VS appears to be using a more primitive encoder than what you find in the camera, so output is flakey anyway. Ideally you want to have the program not recode except when necessary to avoid degradation, and you can do this if you output as a file. But, that option isnt available if you burn a disc and you are stuck with VS's shortcomings. So until Corel see fit to get the burner compliant with the Blu-Ray standard it is best to avoid the H.264 option when burning discs. Unless you shoot in one of the camera's lower bit rate modes, so you can avoid the VS encoder.

If you are not burning a disc and simply creating a playable file, I would suggest avoiding the presets completely and use the same as first file option since the presets also choke the bit rate for some unknown reason.

If you are going to burn a disc you will get much better results using the mpeg2 option.

[pepegota]

On my Panny TM900, I shot at 1980X1080, 60i. My output from VS was H264 60i and 60P-the 60P did not have rough edges when I paused the video-the 60i did. I will try the AVCHD VS mode and see what happens. I alwayf use ImagBurn to burn to Blu-Ray. I wouldn't think of shooting in 60P-no editing capabilities.

[pepegota]

I just made four test clips. Two for the 1920X1080i and 1920X1080P AVCHD mode and two more for the BluRay mode at the same resolutions. Both 1080P's were about the same according to MediaInfo regarding their characteristics. The 1080P's did not show rough edges as did the 1080i"s. One interesting thing, the 1920X1080P, at 29.970 fps, is not part of the BluRay spec. It has to be 1080i or 25i, 24P, 23.976P. Yet these 1920X1080P's at 29.970 burned well onto Blu Ray Discs.So, for me it's either P version.

[rreynard]

The insight here is great! I have ALWAYS created video files of my video segments, then used those segments to make a disc. The reason was earlier limitations of VS when making DVD's.....the quality sucked when having the software convert the images before burning the DVD. So, now that I have my HD camera, VSX4, and a Blu-ray burner, I attempted to let VSX4 do all the work by choosing Create Disc -> Blu-Ray, and using the VS project files. And, you know, I'm pleased with the results! Mainly because 1) It worked! and 2) the quality, even when pausing, wasn't bad. Though, I have NO idea what video format VSX4 uses when creating the video files (from my originally listed 3 options).......