1080p rendering problem - anyone have a 1080p camcorder?

[joneisele]

I have a new Sony HDR-CX560 camcorder. It is a consumer level model that shoots HD in 1080P. If I take a single clip with no changes or other video artifacts like titles or effects, use *same settings as the first clip*, and ensure SmartRender is enabled, VSX4 re-renders the file as MPEG-2.

Surely VSX4 could not have such a glaring defect and there must be some other cause on my system. Maybe some simple user error here? Does anyone out there have a newer 1080P camcorder? Have you tried this experiment?

Native video clip details: H.264, 24 bits, 1920x1080, 16:9, 59.94 fps, max 25999 kbps variable bit rate.
Resultant video clip details: MPEG-2, 24 bits, 720x480, 4:3, 29.97 fps, max 2000 kbps variable bit rate

As a side note, if I set the camcorder to 1080i, then things work as you would expect. As far as I can tell, no re-rendering (file size about the same, properties the same, looks ok). In the 1080i experiment case, I see the following for both the native and result clip: H.264, 24 bits, 1920x1080, 16:9, 29.97 fps, max 16000 kbps variable bit rate.

PS In case of confusion here: the above issue is not the same one I was reporting on in a different thread. Those clips were 1080i. At the time I had not realized my camcorder was not on the 1080P setting. That issue still exists - take your same sample 1080i clip. Yes, you lose some quality with a re-render, but this result is unacceptable. Very noticeable with the right clip, a good playback device, and a large screen (I have a 55" 3D LED-LCD).

[aljimenez]

I'm afraid you are in the leading edge for most of us. The best my cameras do is 1920x1080x24p. Not sure how many are doing 60p with VS X4 yet, so you are likely the one to eventually tell us how to do this. Read some discussions about this in the forum. Some titles are 24fps, 60p and read what has already been said about this. There is a codec fddshow that may give you the 60p capability... Al

[Natal]

You will have to look back, but I believe this has been discussed before on the board. Apparently VS can input 1080P at 60fps, but not output it.

[Ken Berry]

Natal is right -- though only up to a point. X4 simply can't handle the 50/60 fps from your camera in the same way. It cannot output it in AVCHD format, though you can output in .avi format using a variety of codecs. However, this is only of limited use to many users who need AVCHD.

I raised this on more than one occasion with Corel during the beta testing process for X4, but was told that the international standard for 50/60 fps video was 1280 x 720 p, and until such time as 1920 x 1080p was included in the international standard, they would not be rushing to produce any patch for X4...

[joneisele]

Thanks for your input everyone. I realize 60p is a new, but it isn't that new. I have an off the shelf Sony camcorder like you would buy at Best Buy, B&H Photo - it is a consumer model. I'm just shocked that VSX4 doesn't have support. You would think customers would want to their camcorders to the fullest ability.

How do you install a 3rd party codec and direct VSX4 to use it to produce an AVI file or whatever? I've just recently started to broach the topic of file formats / containers vs. codecs, so bear with me. I tried "Custom", but some of the options are greyed out and only one encoder appears.

[Black Lab]

I realize 60p is a new, but it isn't that new.

It has nothing to do with it being new, but rather that it has not been adopted as an international standard. Right or not, that appears to be Corel's policy.

[joneisele]

The options on my camcorder are 60i, 60p, and 24p. What would you recommend? I would like to have the best looking HD video out of my camcorder. I can play files directly on my PS3, so don't have to burn to DVD or BD. However, in the future I may burn BD and send to relatives as I have done in the past with DVD.

[aljimenez]

I can imagine how good the quality must be with 60p; I find the 24p that my camera provides quite good except with scenes with lots of rapid motion or if I do pans or zooms too quickly. If I film rapid motion I use 60p but my camera must go down to 1920x720. Most purists like 24p because of its film look; 30p and 60p looks too much like TV video (they say). The answer to your question is probably use your best 60p to have the highest quality for the future. Most programs allow you to create video down from that for various uses... Al

[Natal]

I realize 60p is a new, but it isn't that new.

It has nothing to do with it being new, but rather that it has not been adopted as an international standard. Right or not, that appears to be Corel's policy.

Except that 1080p at 60 fps HAS been part of the international standard since July 2008.

[erdna]

More than one year ago I bought my Panasonic TM700, a 1080p50 capable camcorder. Since then I did several test with NLE's. Quite a number do accept 1080p50 but do not generate 50 p content. Uo to now I only found Sony Vegas 10 Pro capable to do so (10 times theVS price!). VS generates a 25p FsP equivalent 50i AVCHD. For those who want to do some tests I have put a 10 sec 1080p50 counter clip in http://users.telenet.be/bettydemey
P.S.1080p50 is not AVCHD nor BD compatible, but is super with multimediaplayers

[teknisyan]

Another work around that you can try is to create your movie template that you can use and change the FRAME RATE from the GENERAL Tab when you are in the Template options.

For more information on how to create your own movie template, visit: http://pnoy.me/1F on how to create movie templates.

[bstuartb]

I t is about time that Corel woke up

ULead used to be ahead. Now Corel lags pitifully. To think that they imaging 750 line to be the standard so they don't have to get off their ....es

[Ken Berry]

Abiel -- the problem with your suggestion is that the output is locked at 1280 x 720 p if you follow that method. There is no way of getting it to 1920 x 1080p in that format.

[Ken Berry]

erdna -- I just downloaded your clip, which I found intriguing to say the least. As you say, it does not identify itself as AVCHD, but nonetheless clearly uses the H.264 main profile codec. And it uses the mp4 extension, as opposed to .mts/.m2ts.

It is not quite clear from your post whether you were only talking about trying to generate an actual AVCHD using the 50p in Video Studio, or whether you were talking about other formats more generally which also use 50p. As you say, trying to output your file as an AVCHD using X4 and choosing 1080p, you get one which is 25 fps, though it would appear to my eyes at least, to play at exactly the same quality level as the original. Intriguingly, though, it uses the .m2t extension which I would normally associate with HDV mpeg-2. It also shows no Field Order information.

Selecting AVCHD but without the p after 1080, you get a file which is shown to be Upper Field First at 25 fps. But again the quality seems identical.

However, using Share > Create Video File > Same As First Clip, it produced an identical clip to the original, using full 50p and also with the mp4 extension.

By way of a footnote, I had just added SP1 to my X4 before running these experiments, so I can't say what might have happened in the unpatched X4.

[erdna]

Ken, thanks for your reply.
About the .mp4 extension: very long time ago I wrote a little script on my (50Hz) Comodore64 where I included a counter having one increment for each field (2/frame). I archived this on a VCR tape. Some time ago I filmed this 50i video played by a VCR and displayed straight on an analog monitor (avoiding extra digital processing, like de-interlacing,framerate conversion,...). For that filmiing I used my TM 700 in 1080p50 mode. So I got a .MTS file with one unique number for each frame. Because the videofile was too large to put on my FTP site (50 MB limit) I reduced this videofile with Vegas 10 Pro. This resulted in a 1080p50 file having the .mp4 extension with the same (temporal) properties as the original .MTS file.
I e.g. PowerDVD it can be verified in a frame by frame mode that each frame has its consecutive frame number. Processing this file in VSX3(4) for an "AVCHD1920x1080" output content ends up in an .mpg file which again can be verified with PowerDVD. It show that the same frame is being used twice. This means that the temporal resolution is being halved to the equivalent of a 25p with 1/50 shutter time. Everything will indeed look fine on the (almost) static video, in real video's processed this way it ends up with the known (film) judder when there is significant judder.
B.t.w. with my VSX3 the "same as first videoclip" selection is greyed out with this file on the timeline.