Question for those who burn to Blu-Ray BD-R

[ptbpilot]

Hello all,

I am a VS x3 user. My camera is the Canon Vixia HF S21 which captures HD images in AVCHD format. Currently my PC contains a DVD+R burner only, but I own a Blu-Ray player connected to the TV.

Currently I capture AVCHD video from the Canon at this setting:
FXP (17Mbps) 8 hours 20 minutes. Allows 1920 x 1080 Full HD Recording.

I then render the project as AVCHD 1920, and later import the file into MF 7SE for burning to AVCHD disc which plays in the BD player. This is the best quality I understand I can record at the moment. I notice that when rendering and burning, the settings for AVCHD show the rate at 16Mbps tops. I would like to record at the highest setting the camera will allow which is:
MXP (24Mbps) 5 hours 55 minutes. Allows 1920 x 1080 Full HD Recording.

I take it that I will need a BD-R and BD discs to do this. Any recommendations?
Also, can VS X3 and MF 7SE handle the higher rate, and will the render and burn rates increase to reflect somewhere in the ballpark of 24Mbps to match the Canon?

Any advice appreciated.

Peter

[Ken Berry]

The international standard for AVCHD hybrid discs only allows a maximum bitrate of 18 Mbps. Although the default in MF 7 SE (and VS X4) shows as lower than this, you can click on the Project Settings cogwheel icon in the bottom left of the burning screen and change the burning settings to reflect this higher speed in the compression tab.

If you are burning the AVCHD folder as an actual Blu-Ray disc but in the original AVCHD format, then MF 7 and X4 allow a maximum bitrate of 20 Mbps, rather than the 24 Mbps which is now the maximum international standard for AVCHD itself. I am not sure why this is. However, if instead of using the AVCHD format, and instead choose Blu-Ray mpeg-2 as the output, you will be able to use a maximum bitrate of 35 Mbps in both MF 7 and X4.

FWIW, I have an LG Blu-Ray burner which does a good job, though I find the price of BD-R discs hideously expensive here in New Zealand (NZ$38 for one!!!) No room for error there, or else a verrrry expensive drink coaster!

[ptbpilot]

Thank you Ken. When I obtain the BD-R then I will render projects as Blu-Ray MPEG-2 format.

[Natal]

The international standard for AVCHD hybrid discs only allows a maximum bitrate of 18 Mbps. Although the default in MF 7 SE (and VS X4) shows as lower than this, you can click on the Project Settings cogwheel icon in the bottom left of the burning screen and change the burning settings to reflect this higher speed in the compression tab.

If you are burning the AVCHD folder as an actual Blu-Ray disc but in the original AVCHD format, then MF 7 and X4 allow a maximum bitrate of 20 Mbps, rather than the 24 Mbps which is now the maximum international standard for AVCHD itself. I am not sure why this is. However, if instead of using the AVCHD format, and instead choose Blu-Ray mpeg-2 as the output, you will be able to use a maximum bitrate of 35 Mbps in both MF 7 and X4.

FWIW, I have an LG Blu-Ray burner which does a good job, though I find the price of BD-R discs hideously expensive here in New Zealand (NZ$38 for one!!!) No room for error there, or else a verrrry expensive drink coaster!

The Blu-Ray specification supports MPEG-2, H.264/MPEG-4 AVC and SMPTE VC-1. If you look at commercial Blu-Ray titles, some of them say which codec is used. Of the ones I have, only one is mpeg-2, all the rest are AVC. The bit rates for the AVC discs range from 18-30 Mbps. In fact, most commercial Blu-Ray discs are produced using AVC or VC-1 nowdays, because those codecs more efficient than mpeg-2 and thus allow more footage to be included on a disc.

AVCHD discs (which are burned on regular DVD discs) are limited to 18 Mbps. That was the original specification, but it has since been increased to 24 Mbps. A Blu-Ray AVC disc (which uses the same codec) should be able to made at much higher bit rates however, it is NOT limited to 20 Mbps. Corel set that arbitary limit, most likely it was simply copied over from the AVCHD template, which is very annoying because that isnt a limit for blu-ray discs. Back when X2 was around, AVCHD discs were all that were practical so it is understandable that they did that, but cameras with high bit rates and blu-ray burners are relatively cheap nowdays, so Corel should move with the times and remove the bit rate limit for the blu-ray discs. The burner module for VS does not appear to have been significantly updated outside of cosmetic changes since at least VS12.

It is not that VS can't handle higher bit rates for AVC footage, it has no problem producing files with those bit rates, the problem is that they simply haven't updated the burner module in years.

Oh, and you can have higher bit rates than 35 MBps when using mpeg-2. 35Mbps is used as the default setting in VS, but it can be increased.

One more thing, here in Canada blank Blu-Ray discs cost about $3 each, so they are affordable. DVDs are about 25-50c each, depending on what brand you get and if they are on sale.

[ptbpilot]

Natal,

Thank you for your input. I have my eye on the Lite-On BD-R that newegg.com shows for around low $100. They have a promo that they include 5 blanks apparently.

When I go this route and have the BD burner installed, what format do you recommend for burning my project to BluRay discs? Should I render as BluRay option (which apparently VS has as MPEG2), or render as MPEG4/H264, and then open MF7SE and import that file?

Is there any way to pump up the transfer rate in MF7SE or VS from the 20MBps to 24 that my camera records in?

Pete

[Natal]

If you are not going to burn as a disc you, but just want a file that you can play, the best way to do it and retain quality is to use "same as first clip" or (if you have an AVCHD camera) use the AVCHD preset. The AVCHD preset says that it is going to use the current settings, which has a VBR max of 18 mbps, but it actually leaves the footage at it's original bit rate, so that is OK. If you use the Blu-ray preset for H.264 it will convert the bit rate down to 20 mbps.

If you are burning a disc the H.264 versions will be rendered as 18 mbps or 20 mbps, depending on whether you use AVCHD or Blu-ray respectively. It will not retain the original bit rate. This will result in image degradation, which is especially noticeable when you have low contrast but detailed backgrounds/foregrounds (you see horrendous blocky compression artifacts - totally unacceptable!). The mpeg-2 option for Blu-ray will give better results, but there will still be some image degradation.

I am not sure what happens if you use one of the lower quality settings on your camera, you might be able to avoid the rendering engine in VS if you do that.

The ideal thing would be to have the max bit rate in the burning program high enough so that the "do not convert compliant mpeg files" setting kicks in, I think that would give a final output with pretty much the same quality as the original footage. But for some reason Corel have not done that so we are left in a situation where we have no good choices if we want high quality footage. The basic problem IMO is that VS was created for SD editing, and the attention to the HD side of the program is majorly lacking. It is an SD editor that HD has been jerry-rigged into. Do people still have SD TV sets any more? I don't think you can even buy them.

[Black Lab]

Do people still have SD TV sets any more?

Of course! People still have VCRs too!

[ptbpilot]

Natal,

Thanks again. Just to make it clear.....my plan is to burn a BluRay disc with the new BD-R burner. So the best thing to do is set the Canon to the max quality setting (MXE = 24Mpbs) for filming, then after import and edit I render the project with "Same as first clip" setting.

If I understand this, it will keep the camera clip quality but downconvert to 20Mbps for the Blu Ray, and may get some artifacts.....is this correct?

Pete

[Natal]

Your camera produces the same format/bit rates as mine. If you are shooting at 17 mbps then you should be able to use the AVCHD presets for your dvds and get similar quality output. You should be able to record hydbrid discs using regular DVDs, you won't need Blu-ray discs (you Blu-ray player should be able to play them), just remember to manualy increase the bit rate to its maximum setting for AVCHD (which is 18 mbps) to avoid additional compression.

If you want to record Blu-ray discs using the high quality setting on your camera (24 mbps) you will need to record them using the mpeg-2 preset. As I mentioned, the H.264 presets in VS are capped at 20mbps, which means you will see severe compression artifacts. The mpeg-2 format Blu-ray discs are much better (the preset bit-rate is 35 mbps but you can increase that to a higher value if you want) but still show some degradation compared to the original footage.

So, to answer your question, if you want the best quality Blu-ray discs with the 24mbps camera setting, you need to render them with mpeg-2, not H.264.

[ptbpilot]

Natal,

Excellent that clears the BD-R question up, I will use MPEG-2 option.

Currently I have the camera set to FXP 17000 Mbps mode as I only have the DVD+R burner and discs currently. I make the hybrid disc and play it in the Blu Ray player. The draw back of course is that the disc can only be 35 mins, so that's another reason besides quality that I want the BD-R.

I notice that VS and MF7SE refer to 16000 Mpbs. How can I increase that to 18000Mbps as you mentioned?

I guess that will have to be done on VS when I render, and again on MF 7SE when I burn to disc?

[bstuartb]

I am shooting HD AVCHD with a Panasonic SD700 1920x1080 16800kbps

If I try to make an AVCHD Disk with either VSPro4X VSPro3X or MF7, with 'smart' ie no re-rendering, the image is good but the disks always hangup somewhere on all 3 of my different Bluray player (LG, Toshiba and Samsung). Fast forward or chapter skip cause immediate hangups.

Is ANYONE succeeding in making bulletproof non re-rendered AVCHD with VSPro???

[Black Lab]

SmartRender was designed for SD video. It has been recommended on this board to render HD video WITHOUT SmartRender.

[Natal]

SmartRender was designed for SD video. It has been recommended on this board to render HD video WITHOUT SmartRender.

The smartrender option is only available when you output files, not discs. Smartrender is supposed to speed things up by only rerendering those bits which have actually been changed, and using the original footage where it has not.

Outputting to discs has a different option, which is to disable rendering of compliant files. I think the idea behind that is that you produce the file seperately and then use that to create a disc. Obviously, in that scenario you would want not to re-render it again since all the program has to do it put the file in the proper directory and burn the disc.

The problem with VS appears to be that it is creating the actual video file differently when you burn to disc compared to when you simply produce a file.

One other thing, what we really need is an encoder other than the ancient Ulead one. There is a drop down menu in the options that allows you to select encoders, but Ulead is the only one there. I think a lot of these rendering issues have to do with the encoder that is at the core of VS, certainly the encoders used in cameras appear vastly better.

[ptbpilot]

Your camera produces the same format/bit rates as mine. If you are shooting at 17 mbps then you should be able to use the AVCHD presets for your dvds and get similar quality output. You should be able to record hydbrid discs using regular DVDs, you won't need Blu-ray discs (you Blu-ray player should be able to play them), just remember to manualy increase the bit rate to its maximum setting for AVCHD (which is 18 mbps) to avoid additional compression.

If you want to record Blu-ray discs using the high quality setting on your camera (24 mbps) you will need to record them using the mpeg-2 preset. As I mentioned, the H.264 presets in VS are capped at 20mbps, which means you will see severe compression artifacts. The mpeg-2 format Blu-ray discs are much better (the preset bit-rate is 35 mbps but you can increase that to a higher value if you want) but still show some degradation compared to the original footage.

So, to answer your question, if you want the best quality Blu-ray discs with the 24mbps camera setting, you need to render them with mpeg-2, not H.264.

Natal,
Last questions:
1. In VS X3 how do I increase to the max AVCHD setting of 18000? I cannot find a way to do this and it defaults to 16000. I do see where in MF7SE you have the option to increase to 18000.

2. When I upgrade to the BD-R and burn BluRay I will use the MPEG2 setting. If I record in the Canon's max 24000 rate, your saying that the max VS X3 will do is 20000? So there will be artifacts? At this point I'm thinking to stay at the camera's 17000 rate and make BluRay discs. At least they will hold more than 35 minutes of footage.

At least until Corel upgrades VS to handle 24000!

[Natal]

I removed V12 and X3 when I installed X4, so I can't check directly, but IIRC when you start the authoring module in X3, pull out the options panel (its on the right side) and select custom. When you do that some additional options become visible, one of those is the bit rate. With AVCHD you can set it to a maximum of 18 mbps for 1920x1080 (15 mbps for 1440x1080 I think). For Blu-ray the H.264 option allows a maximum bit rate of 20 mbps at that resolution. The Blu-ray mpeg-2 option defaults at around 35 mbps, but you can set it much higher than that if you want. You also have the option of burning as a PAL or NTSC disc interestingly, something earlier and later versions of VS burning modules don't allow you to do. The bit rate limits in X3 are pretty much the same as in X4, the only real difference appears to be the user interface for the authoring module (which in X4 has defaulted back to the old interface).

If you convert your 24 mbps footage to 20 mbps, you will definitely see a significant increase in compression artifacts. As I said in an earlier post, your best bet is to render to a Blu-ray disc using the mpeg-2 option. You will still see some image degradation but it is nowhere near as bad as the H.264 option.