Moving images are blurred/jumpy after applying 2.231 patches

[Reg]

Applied 2.231 patches to DWS2.0, and now have unacceptable picture quality.
Re-installed DWS2.0 from scratch and re-applied the patches - no improvement.
Assuming that applying 2.231 to 2.0 applies 2.011 & 2.22 as well.

"Jumpiness" occurs approx every 0.5sec & is very regular.
It's not noticeable on still images, but in scenes with (eg) a narrator, the trees in the b/g are blurred and jumpy (sorry - don't yet have the vocab to describe such faults).
From my VERY limited DVD knowledge, that suggests that the Groups Of Pictures are compromised/corrupted somehow.

Patching from 2.0 to 2.231 inroduces 2-pass MPEG2 encoding, which sounds like the area where GOPs might be affected, but 2.231 is 2mths old and such a fundamental flaw would surely have been reported well before now...

So I'm left without a clue how to fix this.
My next actions:
a) Reinstall DWS2.0 but don't reapply the patches
b) Create small project to reduce retry time
c) Gather more info
d) Re-check this forum, post further info.
In the meantime, if anyone recognizes this problem & knows the solution, please share!
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h/w, s/w, project properties FYI:
Win2K on P4 2.4Ghz + 1GB RAM.
Project is EXACTLY same project that rendered fine in DWS2.0 (I'm a 20yr veteran s/w programmer and don't use the word "exactly" lightly) No changes other than to move one in-point by one I-frame on 1 of 12 titles.
Apart from DWS, s/w and h/w haven't changed for weeks. No alerts in Event log.
Using .AVIs captured by DWS2.0. No tweaks, other than to mark in & out points. AVIs are on FAT32 ATA133 drive.
Rendering/burning using "Good quality - approx 90minutes per DVD" template (project is 80mins)
(properties are
MPEG files
24 Bits, 720 x 480, 29.97 fps
(DVD-NTSC), 4:3
Video data rate: Variable (Max. 8000 kbps)
LPCM Audio, 48 KHz, Stereo)
Rendering to NTFS ATA133 drive.
Using RITEK DVDs (seem to have been fine so far)

[GeorgeW]

Is "Apply Anti-Flicker" turned On or Off in your Preferences?

How were the still images created? Using DWS's Slideshow functionality, or in an editor, and output to a video stream?

Are you using the 2-pass VBR option? If so, try it at 6000 CBR instead.

Are you capturing DV .avi, or some other type of .avi videos?

George

[Reg]

Thanks for speedy reply George! Have spent a deal of time trying to find intelligent answers for your question about VBR/CBR. (Don't want to be construed as a time-waster!)
Here's what I've got.
Apply anti-flicker is ON (but thought this only applies to slideshows, and assumed (dangerous word) it would be ignored for video)

Stills were created in PhotoshopLE, imported to EditDV, rendered to .MOV, printed to miniDV tape as part of the "finished" video, then captured with all the rest of the footage into DWS as DV .AVI. So (as far as I know, which isn't very far!!) the images are "nothing special" to DWS, other than there is zero delta between frames for a GOP to record, whereas trees rustling in a breeze will create a delta).

Sorry - cannot locate where I determine VBR vs. CBR. Tried "hunt & peck", the ULead manual & the built-in help. Please can you guide me? (But I did discover that I now have more buring speeds after applying 2.231 - I now have 4x, 8x, 16x, 24x, MAX whereas before I had 2x, MAX. I had "MAX" selected, expecting it to detect the maximum speed for the burner (LG GSA 4040B - max speed is 4X for DVD-R).

Capturing DV .AVI

Inference from your questions is that the patches have exposed a "fault" in my capture (or something) that DWS2.0 without patches tolerated?

[GeorgeW]

The VBR or CBR (Variable or Constant BitRate) is under the 2-pass option in the Compression Tab when using the Disc Template Manager. I thought since you mentioned the 2-pass, that you saw the pulldown menu under it for "Video Data Rate" If you are using Variable, switch it to Constant, and don't use the 2-pass option.

I wasn't sure how the stills were being included (as a DWS slideshow, or rendered as a video in some other package), that's why I asked about that "Anti FLicker" filter. When EditDV outputs the stills as a video, what are the attributes of the resulting video? What do you use to export the .mov to miniDV tape? Even though there is zero delta, they will be interlaced when re-capturing from miniDV, and the constant switching from upper/lower field is probably causing the "flicker".

Are you burning DVD discs, or CD-R discs? I'm surprised you see an option of 24x if burning a DVD disc...

George

[Reg]

Once again, thanks for the speedy reply!
Reason I hadn't spotted the "compression tab" was that I had used the "90 minute DVD" template as supplied with the product, thinking that its defaults would all be the safest options for a beginner.
I tried
a) experimenting with type-1 capture (DWS had defaulted me to type-2)
b) upgrading the burning engine (ULead sent me a CD that was burned 02/06/2004 (2nd June? 6th Feb? Why don't people use yyyy-mm-dd dates these days????))
Neither fixed the problem.
Then tried the compression thing - created my own template (same as the supplied 90min DVD, but with data rate changed FROM the default of Variable 4000 TO Constant 6000. My 8 minute, 4 clip sample is playing properly.

btw - I watched a LOT more of the faulty DVD while I was waiting for things to render and burn, and discovered that the still vs. moving images was not true. The fault was actually "random" on movie footage (interview clips from same original shoot were spread throughout the program and some had the fault, some didn't).

I will post a follow-up here, either becasue I"m still struggling, or to let anyone who might encounter this problem know that a suggested fix worked.
Thanks George. I look forward to becoming proficient enough to offer advice to others!
btw - any advice on type-1 vs type-2 AVI? My reading so far favours type-1 for longer programs, to prevent sync drift, but I need to find some "authoritative" lierature on the topic (as well as on the whole subject of DVD authoring).

[mLANman]

Greeting all,

I'm a newbie here so I'll try to clear. I am experiencing the same jumping/flickering issues that all of you are experiencing. I jumped ship from Encore... because it is SUCH a pain to use, and couldn't handle the 6 subtitle tracks and 7 audio tracks I need for my current project.

I have a few strange things to note about this issue:

I was using the trial version of DVDWS2 and all was well. Our video system is based on a Canopus DV/Mpeg card, which allows us to do real-time CBR Mpeg. So I've been doing quick one-offs for our client using DVDWS2 trial - using the Canopus card for the conversion.

It's been great, quick and they look ok. The program is over 2 hours so I've been using CBR@4500. No artifacts.

Now we have purchased the program and done the updates and we are getting the artifacts. This happens using the Canopus card AND/OR the Ulead codec.

The Trial version didn't do any of this.

Just my observations. After the holidays, I'm going to uninstall DVDWS2 and reinstall the 'un-patched' version and see if things get better. I'd hate to think I just wasted $300+ buck to get a program that doesn't work.

And the thought of going back to Encore makes me sick!

mLANman

[mLANman]

Ok,

I can't be the only one who is still having this problem. I de-installed DVDWS and reinstalled the unpatched version and all was great.

Then I patched it again...

And it's back to its old jittery tricks. I called Ulead and they said they hadn't heard of this problem. I suggested that they read their own forums a bit more.

I have gotten an email from Ulead Tech Support, but the "fix" didn't do anything.

My workaround, for the moment, is to make the MPEG in another program and import it back into DVDWS. Hardly ideal.

I’ve tried 3 different burners too. All end up looking like crap.

Ulead: Please get this fixed… or give me my money back.

mLANman

[tonyc]

After tests I found that DVDWS 1.0 through 1.3 and DVDWS 2.00 will encode DV-AVI using Canopus codec or Microsoft DV codec fine.

After applying "2.011 Update Patch (Released Date: 3/30/04)" DVDWS encodes DV-AVI using Canopus codec with bad frame judder at any bit rate, seen especially in scenes with panning. It seems likely that DVDWS is reversing the field order. I even turned on the INI file option to reveal the 'Advanced' button to get to the MediaConcepts settings. Field Order is correctly shown as Lower/Bottom field first, and anyway won't let you change it.
Converting DV-AVI with Procoder Express to use Micrsoft codec and DVDWS works fine. DVDWS v2.231 Two pass variable bit rate good results even at 4000 kbps bit rate.

MediaStudio Pro 7 Service Pack 3 (Release Date: 4th April 2005) fix (d) "Fix Field Order problem of DV AVI created by Canopus Edius DV codec, which is very interesting!

[plasma_video]

Interesting.

I've been having field order reversal problems in Movie Factory 3 trying to encode AVI files made off of the Edius timeline with the Canopus CODEC. I never tried using the MS CODEC for render. I just assumed it was the way MF handled AVI conversion in general until I stumbled across your posts. I've been considering getting DVD Workshop, so I hope they fix the problem in it as well.

Thanks.

Tom

[NoClue]

I am also having this problem, but never used to.
I recently rebuilt my machine, reinstalled everything (including the updates) and now it's playing silly buggers!

Bye the way, what does this mean?:-

I even turned on the INI file option to reveal the 'Advanced' button to get to the MediaConcepts settings.

I have lots of different codecs/encoders available to me, but DVDWS will only allow me to use one - ULEAD MPEG.Now encoder. Is this a setting that will allow me to use a different encoder?


NoClue

[mLANman]

I'm glad (ok.. not really glad) to see that I'm not the only one who was having this problem. I'm still using another program to do my encoding, and then bringing them into DVDWS. We are in the final stages of another DVD and was just checking in to see if this had been resolved. It seems it hasn't. We may be jumping to Apple's DVD Studio Pro, so all of this may be moot. Still, I wanted to like DVDWS but we are starting to grow beyond what it is capable of doing.

Bye the way, what does this mean?:-

I even turned on the INI file option to reveal the 'Advanced' button to get to the MediaConcepts settings.

There is a line in the INI file for DVDWS that turns on or off the advanced encoding features. For some folks, when they install DVDWS it doesn't activate this extra menu and you have to turn it on manuallu in the INI file. Can'te remember which line/comand it is though.

mLANman

[JohnF]

This is the route to turning on the Advance button.
My computer>C:>Documents and Settings>All Users>Application data>Ulead sytems>Ulead DVD Workshop>2.0
Load the DVDWS.ini file into Notepad and add Advance=1 at the end of the first Viodriver list.

Now, having 'upgraded' to WS2 in the past few days I find I am having the same problems as you guys, it seems because I use the Canopus codec from my Storm2 board and Edius 3.3. I hope this is fixed quickly as otherwise I shall be requesting a refund.
John

[JohnF]

My jittery playback problem has been solved by reducing the bitrate of the captured clips from 12,000kbps to 8900kbps, which means WS2 does not have to re-encode the clips, and ensuring all clips were Lower Field First.
HTH
John

[GeorgeW]

Hi John,

Glad you got that sorted out -- I would use even lower bitrates (6000-7000kbps). See my reply at the other forum

[Devil]

I'm a great believer in 6000 kbit/s CBR for short projects (<1.5 hours), with a DV quality input. Going higher will not show any visual improvement in the DVD when played on a TV (or computer), as the DV compressions is already high. For longer projects (>2 hours) I might use VBR with 6000 max and average to suit the project. HOWEVER, analysis of the results shows that the high bitrate is not so much where there is fast movement in the video as where there are transitions, such as F/X, where the visual improvement is not over-important. I've also found that stills do not necessarily encode at the min rate, as you may expect. I think there may be a lot of claptrap spoken about bitrates, where what counts is the quality of the pic.

Put it this way as an analogy, if you have a camera with a poor lens, a high res film is not going to give you better results, provided you are within the grain limits of a fast film.