VS X4 supported Frame Rates?

[mcspeedy380]

Ok,
This is messing with my head. I cannot get this thing to work.
Kingston, thanks for writing back, but unless you can give a full description so I can see what my obvious error is, I'm going to have to assume you are spreading propaganda for Corel or you are a spy for the One World Government trying visit chaos and confusion upon the citizenry.
I'm using the Microsoft AVi setting. I've got the Xvid codec. I'm using a .MOV file. But I can't get 60 ticks.
Trevor, I will send you a clip for you to play with. Maybe you will have more luck and can tell me what I'm doing wrong.

Nosnoop, Thanks. That tsmuxer work-around works nicely. I think I'll stick with X3 and tsmuxer and let this X4 trial expire without buying it until this is sorted out.

(are you listening Corel?? I'm not buying!!)

[Kingston]

mcspeedy380, here are the Kingston steps:

1. File > New Project
1a. Save Changes? Click either Yes or No
2. Settings > Propject Properties
3. Edit File Format: Microsoft AVI Files
4. Click Edit button
5. Click AVI tab
6. Select XVID. Microsoft Video 1 works, too.
7. Click General tab
8. Frame Rate: Manually enter 60
9. Frame Type: Upper Field First. Don't change to frame-based.
10. Frame Size: User Defined: Width: 1920, Height: 1080
11. Click OK button
12. Click OK button
13. Do you want to continue? Click OK button.
**Timeline ticks will NOT be 60 at this point.**
14. File > New Project
15. Save Changes? Click either Yes or No.
**Timeline ticks still NOT 60 at this point.**
16. Settings > Project Properties
17. Edit file format: Change to Microsoft AVI Files
At this point verify in the description box that it says 1920x1080, 60 fps, Upper field first
18. Click OK button
19. Do you want to continue? Click OK button
** Timeline is now 60 ticks.**

I'll check back later. I have an appointment with some underground people.

[Ken Berry]

FWIW, while Kingston was typing the above, I was experimenting with his Feb 24 post. In fact, I independently followed the above steps, with a couple of variations. Like him, I used the XVid codec which I happened to have on my computer.

First, I simply went to Settings > Project Properties, and worked from there. I did not start a New Project. My timeline was empty at that stage. After I made the changes, I applied it as the template for future projects and the existing one.

Re his Step 8: I was actually rather surprised by this. In the past, I had assumed, on clicking on the downward pointing arrow, that what you saw is what you got, with the maximum allowable frame rate being 30 fps. I had never before tried manually typing in something different in this box (and I hadn't read Kington's step by step guide at that stage!) So I tried it and was quite surprised when not only I could type in '50' (I am in PAL country), but that it didn't come up with some sort of error message when I saved the template.

Re his step 9, I actually used Frame Based which worked fine. It remained as the Project Property throughout my experiment and in the final output video. But as he conjectures, I believe XVid, like DivX, is actually frame-based/progressive in any case.

I then inserted the only fully progressive 50 fps clip of 1920 x 1080 AVCHD I possess into the timeline. I then chose Share > Create Video File > Same As Project Settings. And I ended up with a fully functional Microsoft AVI using the XVid codec at 1920 x 1080 and 50 fps. It plays as smoothly as the original, Moreover, when I expanded it to a frame-by-frame view, it showed no signs of every second frame duplicating the first as described in other posts.

[Ken Berry]

Just as a footnote: in addition to XVid and Microsoft Video 1, I have also used the ffdshow video codec successfully under Microsoft AVI as the general format type. The ffdshow codec is discussed in a separate thread that I cannot immediately locate!

[Trevor Andrew]

Hi mcspeedy380

Sorry for the delay in replying, this post seems to have been lost to me in the depths of the forum.

Hi Trevor,
Now have a closer look at your rendered 27.52 sec clip.
Does it have 688 connective, individual frames (like your original), or does it now have only 344 different frames with each one played twice?
Play your original 689 frame, 13sec 50 fps clip in QuickTime at half speed and compare it to the rendered 27sec 25fps clip. If I'm right and VS is just doubling up frames, then the VS output will look jerky compared to QT slow mo.

Yes the video has duplicated an extra frame, as you say playing each frame twice.
But that’s to be expected as it’s the only way tp slow down the video using Time Lapse.

Comparing the playback using QuickTime is a different matter, the program is a media player and will reduce the frame rate to control the speed, but you cannot create a new video at that speed.
I suppose we have to ask if the quality is better reducing the FPS or adding a frame and retaining the higher FPS.

Going a little further you could try the Image Sequence option.
This will create an image for each frame (3 seconds at 60 fps will be 180 images)
These can then be rendered at 30 fps creating a 6 second video using the original 180 frames.

-----------------------------------------

Regarding Kingstones approach, I am able to set the project properties to use 1980 x 1080 x 60 or 50 fps but the timeline still shows 25 fps. Maybe I’m missing something.

Yep I was! I had to set the project frame size to match my video frame size, i was using 1280 x 720 x 50, now i see the correct fps
So i wonder what happens if you mix frame sizes?

[nosnoop]

Yes the video has duplicated an extra frame, as you say playing each frame twice.
But that’s to be expected as it’s the only way tp slow down the video using Time Lapse.

No, that should not be the case or to be expected, because the two clips has identical number of frames.
A 60fps clips slowed down 50% to be played at 30fps should not have any frames added or dropped. That's the reason why I doubted whether Corel has genuine 60fps support even if you can add it to the timeline or it showed 60 clicks. Because if you try to do anything with the clip, half of the frames are gone.

Comparing the playback using QuickTime is a different matter, the program is a media player and will reduce the frame rate to control the speed, but you cannot create a new video at that speed.

Actually, you can. Using QuickTime Pro, you can save the new clip under the new frame rate. Or use a free utility like tsMuxer.
And there are editors out there which can handle this type of frame rate with ease. One example is Edius Neo 3, you can mix and match difference frame rate clips, change the frame rate of the clips etc without a problem. Pity that the software is weak in other areas.

[Kingston]

1. Start with a 60 ticks per second timeline.
2. Drop a 1280 x 720p 59.94fps clip on it.
3. Change playback rate to exactly 50%
4. Share to a 29.97/30 fps frame-based video format.

This gives you a slow motion video with all distinct frames, no duplicates.

[Trevor Andrew]

Hi

Now its doing my head in, There is some confusion here.
Time-Lapse is completely different to Frames Per Second

When you change the frame rate from 50fps to 25 fps the duration of the video does not change. I used AVS Converter to create a 25 fps from a 50 fps mov video file.

The program reduced the FPS and number or frames to keep the duration and playback speed.
Video Studio also treats this in the same manner.
Below are two screen shots, before and after, notice the duration.

Time lapse on the other hand is a different beast.
Now we are altering the number of frames in order to control the duration.

If we use timelapse to slow down a playback the program will add frames in order to achieve this.
To speed up it will simply remove frames.

[Kingston]

Trevor,

We aren't trying to change the frame rate by time stretching.

We are actually talking about both time stretch and conversion of frames per second. You have to keep in mind that we are on a timeline with 60 ticks per second. We want to time stretch a 50/60 fps video so it plays back exactly twice as long, having the slow-motion effect, and then export that timeline to a video that plays back at 25/30 fps (so it's compliant with DVD specifications, for example). It's still going to take two seconds to play back.

If we start with a one second clip (at 50/60 fps) and time stretch it to a two second clip, after the export it will still be the same two-second slow-motion clip but at 25/30 fps. During the conversion from 50/60 to 25/30 fps, Corel drops every other frame so we don't end up with a four-second clip.

This is what happens to a 50/60 fps clip when dropped on a timeline in Corel:
On a 25/30 fps timeline: Frame 1, Frame 1, Frame 3, Frame 3, Frame 5, Frame 5, Frame 7...
On a 50/60 fps timeline: Frame 1, Frame 2, Frame 3, Frame 4, Frame 5...

This is a comparison of how 50% timestretching goes on a 30 and a 60 fps (ticks) timeline when the original video has 60 fps:
25/30 ticks per second timeline: Frame 1, Frame 1, Frame 1, Frame 1, Frame 3, Frame 3, Frame 3, Frame 3, Frame 5...
50/60 ticks per second timeline: Frame 1, Frame 1, Frame 2, Frame 2, Frame 3, Frame 3, Frame 4, Frame 4, Frame 5...

After timestretching, this is what happens during export when Corel drops every other frame as when converting from 60 fps to 30 fps:
From a 25/30 ticks per second timeline to a 25/30 fps movie you get: Frame 1, Frame 1, Frame 3, Frame 3, Frame 5...
From a 50/60 ticks per second timeline to a 25/30 fps movie you get: Frame 1, Frame 2, Frame 3, Frame 4, Frame 5...

[aafuss]

Thanks for this thread-as a owner of a Sony Bloggie MHS-PM5 that can record at 60p at 720P HD, I'll find the info about 60p video and VS X4 to be of great use to me.

[mcspeedy380]

No Closer!

Kingston, I really appreciate your patience and the trouble you have gone to in detailing the stuff above.

My problem is that the "Kingston steps" don't work for me.
No matter whether I do it exactly as Kingston says, or try a different codec, or no compression, or different frame size, or 50 fps - it doesn't make any difference. When I get to step 17 of the Kingston steps, the file format has defaulted back to:
NTSC non-drop frame (30 fps)
Microsoft AVI files
24 bits, 320 x 240, 30 fps
Upper Field First
Uncompressed
PCM, 44.100 kHz, 16 Bit, Stereo

Could it be that my VS X4 is different from Kingston's VS X4? Is the UK version different from here in Australia? Is it the trial version (only 11 days left - COREL, ARE YOU LISTENING!)? I want this software so I can use it with my 60fps camera - I don't want to buy if it doesn't work, but maybe I'd have to buy to find out if it works.

[mcspeedy380]

Ken,
What does this mean?

After I made the changes, I applied it as the template for future projects and the existing one.

How do you apply something as a template for future projects?
Cheers

[Ken Berry]

Essentially, you have two ways of going about this. First, I set those properties as described above. Then, with an empty timeline, I went to File > Save As and gave the project a memorable name (e.g. AVI Template). Next time I wanted to use those project properties, I only have to open that project, add files and then go to Share > Create Video File > Same As Project Settings.

But a more obvious way is to go to Settings > Make Movie Template Manager, and set up a template according to the above properties, again with a memorable name. Then next time you don't even have to worry about Project Properties as such. Just finish your editing and then select Share > Create Video File > Your Memorable Name (which should appear down the bottom of the drop down menu below Custom).

[mcspeedy380]

I'VE DONE IT!!!
Finally I've got 60 ticks!
In a process I'm going to call the Kingston-Berry Excessively Un-Intuitive Work-Around Steps, I've finally managed to do it.
The steps are:

1. File > New Project
1a. Save Changes? Click either Yes or No
2. Settings > Propject Properties
3. Edit File Format: Microsoft AVI Files
4. Click Edit button
5. Click AVI tab
6. Select XVID. Microsoft Video 1 works, too.
7. Click General tab
8. Frame Rate: Manually enter 60
9. Frame Type: Upper Field First. Don't change to frame-based.
10. Frame Size: User Defined: Width: 1920, Height: 1080
11. Click OK button
12. Click OK button
13. Do you want to continue? Click OK button.
[That's the Kingston phase]
[Now the Berry phase]
First... set those properties as described above.
Then, with an empty timeline... File > Save As and give the project a memorable name (e.g. AVI Template).
... Then... open that project.

Voila (I hope), you have 60 ticks.
I also tried this with a Cinepack codec and 1280x720 frame size, so it seems to be quite flexible.
As per Ken's post, now when ever you want to have the 60 tick timeline, just open the template.

My thanks to all contributors.
Cheers
MS380

[mcspeedy380]

Finally I can show you what I've been on about.
Here's a test video: http://vimeo.com/21900046
Original shot @ 60fps. (3sec x 60fps = 180 frames)
2nd segment slowed to 50% (180 frames @ 30fps = 6 sec)
3rd segment stretched 3 times using Gooder SlowMotion.
This vimeo version rendered at 25 fps so some frames lost.
If you download the source file and play it in something like QuickTime, you can count the frames from the strikers foot until the ball goes out of shot:
1st segment - approx 10 frames (half of the frames from the original dropped when reduced to 30fps)
2nd segment - 20 frames (all the original frames but played for 1/30th of a second each).
3rd segment - 60 frames most of which are made up by the Gooder processor.

I did have an annoying moment when making the first draft of this with different settings. Somewhere in the editing, VS X4 dropped every second frame, so with 60 ticks, the real time segment was playing 30 different frames with each doubled up and the half speed version was playing four copies of each frame. I still have no idea what caused that to happen.