VS2 Creating AVCHD Video

[tjames]

I am using VS2 and have been working on creating a "hybrid DVD" AVCHD video. I have a Canon HD video camera and an HP computer (w/regular DVD burner) with an i7 quad. Hybrid DVD is played on a Bluray player and HD TV. Everything is working well with editing the clips etc... Rendering has gone well with no real problems. I recorded video at the highest setting 24 Mbps. When I click on properties for a (m2ts) clip in the timeline it indicates 21,0000 to 22,000 Kbps that seems normal. Per suggestions from this forum, I than go directly to the burn step (Create disc>AVCHD) and proceed to burn the disc at 4X. When I click on the middle icon (thumbwheel) these are the properties:

MPEG files
24 bits, 1920 x 1080, 29.97 fps
Upper Field First
(HDMV-NTSC), 16:9
H.264 Video
Video data rate: Variable (Max. 18000 kbps)
Audio data rate: 384 kbps
Dolby Digital Audio, 48 KHz, 2/0(L,R)

These settings seem normal to me. Also, the "do not convert compliant......" is checked.

This is what I am not understanding. When the 18 minute HD project is brought into the burn disc module, it shows only 1.45 GB of data and after the disc is burned, the video file properties found on the disc show a total bit rate of 11,768. As a test with the same project, I did a (create video file>same as first clip) and created a mpg file that is 2.75 GB in size with a total bit rate of 21,649 which seems normal. I understand VS has a max of 18K but shouldn't I be able to create a hybrid disc with a data rate close to 18K. The video at the lower bit rate plays and look ok using my BR player but I wanted to find out if I could create a higher quality video on disc.

I have read probably every post relating to what I think my problem is and after trying a couple of things, I cannot increase the total bit rate of the video on my hybrid disc. Thanks in advance for sharing information.

Tyler

[Ken Berry]

With VS X2, I burned a number of hybrid discs quite successfully and with high quality output. But to do so, I have ignored my usual recommendation (with SD video) of first rendering a new file after editing is complete, and using that new file in the burning module. Instead, I finish editing, then jump straight to Share > Create Disc > AVCHD. Then it is the *project* file (VSP) which is inserted automatically in the burning timeline.

This in turn means that there is no actual video in the timeline, so the conversion has to take place as part of the burning process, and those properties you cite are the ones that are used. Importantly, the box 'Do not convert compliant MPEG files', if ticked, is ignored as there are no compliant files in the timeline, just the VSP file. And the reason I used this workflow in X2 was precisely because, if I produced an 18 Mbps new AVCHD in the editing module and used that in the burning module, then somehow or other the average bitrate dropped to around 12 Mbps, and I didn't like the end quality.

If, however, you want to first produce a new file in the editing module and use that to burn, then make sure the 'Do not convert' box is NOT ticked.

An alternative would be to use the 24 Mbps file you produced and insert that. Again the 'Do not convert' box would be ignored since 24 Mbps is not compliant with the international standard for hybrid discs, whose maximum VBR has to be 18 Mbps. The main danger here is that X2 could not deal with AVCHD at 24 Mbps as it was released as a format after X2 was drawn up. AFAIK a patch was never released, though X3 can handle it. (Just to be clear, while the international standard for AVCHD is now 24 Mbps, the standard for hybrid discs has not been raised from the previous AVCHD maximum of 18 Mbps...)

[tjames]

Hi Ken...I have read where you always suggest jumping to the burn step, bypassing the create video file step, when working with ACVHD. That is the process I am following. The only difference I thought of, was that I had been saving the VSP project every 10 minutes or so along the way while editing so I had a VSP file created on my hard drive. When I was ready to burn, I selected create disc>AVCHD and simply added the VSP file to the timeline in the burn module and proceeded to burn the disc.

After reading your reply, as a test, I edited a short one minute HD clip and jumped directly to create disc>AVCHD. I did not save it as a VSP. This short video clip was one of the many clips used to produce the 18 minute video project we are talking about so the original properties are identical. After burning this short video to disc, I looked at the video properties and the total bit rate was similar to the bit rate achieved in the 18 minute project...still around 12,000 Kbps. I should mention just in case I am looking at the wrong number or something. To view the bit rate on my hybrid disc, I open the folders on the disc then open the STREAM folder and right click on the video that resides there. I click on properties and select the "details" tab. In that window under video I find the total bit rate.

Hoping you can get me over the 12K hurdle Ken!

Thanks Tyler

[tjames]

I downloaded a program called "bitrate viewer" and ran the video file that had been burned on the hybrid disc. It showed that the average bitrate is just below 12,000 Bbps. I must have a VS2 setting somewhere that isn't right. I've tried to figure it out but am out of ideas. I assume the computer or DVD burner would not be the limiting factor?

Tyler

[Ken Berry]

I am afraid I am out of ideas. I agree that the first videos I produced, which I rendered in the Edit module, had that unacceptably low average bitrate of around 12 Mbps. The hybrid discs I produced using my suggested method on the other hand have an average bitrate of between 14 and 15 Mbps (with the maximum set at 18 Mbps), and to me look as good as the original video.

Of course the average bitrate used by VBR camcorders will vary according to what is being filmed, so filming gentle countrysides, with only a little panning, will use a much lower bitrate than, say, filming a car race, with lots of action and panning/zooming. Most of my videos are in the former category, but as I say, I still found the rendered clips with an average of around 12 Mbps to be obviously inferior, as do you. But beyond following my recommended procedure -- which obviously works for me! -- I can't think what else you might try to get that average up to the level I achieve.

[tjames]

Thanks Ken for your time....I really appreciate it.

VS2 is working pretty well for me other than the jittery and stuttering preview window issue while editing HD video. I can deal with that....just need to be patient.

But if anyone else out there has solved the problem with the low bit rate when burning a hybrid disc, I would sure appreciate some help.

Thanks.... Tyler

[Ken Berry]

If by any chance you have some AVCHD video filmed using the old maximum bitrate of 18 Mbps (not/notg your new 24 mbps footage) which bitrate viewer shows as having a higher average bitrate, then you could try make a template using it. Then use that to produce a new AVCHD in the Editing module. Worth at least a try.

To make such a template in X2, choose Tools > Make Movie Templates Manager. Then in the dialogue box which appears, click 'Add' down at the bottom. In the new dialogue box which appears, click the '...' button beside 'File Path' and navigate to where your sample video is stored, then select it. The file path should now appear in the dialogue box. Give the Template a sensible name you will remember. Then click OK then Close to get out of the dialogue boxes. Next time you open X2's Editing module, and you want to produce an identical video, choose Share > Create Video File, and in the drop-down menu your new template should appear down towards the bottom.

Note that templates made in this way cannot be later edited. If you try, the template will revert to default DVD SD properties and you would have to make a new template to get back to what you had.

[tjames]

Hi Ken,

I was able to achieve 15 Mbps on my hybrid disc....thanks for your help. I basically went through the steps you layed out and walla! In layman's terms I'll provide a bit of info in case others can benefit from this. I have a canon HD MF30 camera and allows for MXP (24 Mbps) and FXP (17 Mbps) video. For the project described above I had used the 24 setting. Through all of this, I have found that VS2, at least for me, will not produce a hybrid disc at a bit rate above 12 Mbps. No matter how or what I do or what settings I change. Since VS2 recognizes 18 Mbps max video it apparantly defaults to the lower bit rate when in the "create disc" step. It will render the high quality video which can be saved to hard drive.

I took some footage in the FXP mode and started working with that. Using your suggestion with the template manager I was able to get this native video ultimately burned to disc with an average bit rate of 14-15 Mbps. In FXP mode, the cameras native video is only ~15 Mbps so I can't do much better. Although this worked, it goes against your preferred workflow which is to jump directly to the "create disc" step and burn the disk. The only way I could get the results I wanted was to save the file after editing in the "create video file" step and using the template I had saved. the video seemed to turn out OK when played on the BR player. I could not jump to "create disc" after editing and get the bit rate I was looking for. No matter what I did that just didn't work for me. I must be missing something yet but in any case, it seemed to turn out OK doing it this way.

Your help is greatly appreciated!

tyler

[Ken Berry]

Hey, glad it worked to your satisfaction at least! And don't worry -- that's why I gave you that method of making a new template you could use -- obviously that required you to first produce a new clip rather than jump straight into the burning module as I did with X2 and these types of discs. And in a curious way, it is nice to know that our recommended workflow for SD video also works for you with HD! Don't worry too much about rigidly following one workflow or another. Whatever works and gives you the result you are after is always the best way!!!

[tjames]

I agree Ken....

Thanks a bunch!

[tjames]

Ken....I found out what it was I was doing wrong to be able to jump directly from editing to the create disc module (without having to save a video file) and end up with the highest bit rate possible. With that behind me, I have a couple of questions.

1. When I create a "new" template in the disc template manager before burning, that particular template only seems to offer constant bit encoding at 18K. The selection is ghosted out and as a result, the two-pass encoding is ghosted also. How will CBR encoding quality compare to VBR encoding?? And, is there a way to select VBR encoding for a "new" template. This is all HD video. These are the settings I end up with....

MPEG files
24 bits, 1920 x 1080, 29.97 fps
Upper Field First
(HDMV-NTSC), 16:9
H.264 Video
Video data rate: 18000 kbps
Audio data rate: 256 kbps
Dolby Digital Audio, 48 KHz, 2/0(L,R)

2. If I remember right, when working with HD video, "Do not convert compliant mpeg files" does need to be ticked correct??

3. Last, where should the quality slider be set for producing a hybrid disc? Is there a reason not to be at 100%??

Thanks for the help in advance

[Ken Berry]

Re 1: are you using the Add or the New method to create a new template?

Re 2: if you are inserting a video you don't want to be converted again, then yes, Do Not Convert has to be ticked. But of course, the video you insert has to be compliant with whatever final product your are producing.

Re 3: I ignore the quality slider totally. I leave it where it always is (about 70% if I remember correctly). It is a slight misnomer to call it a quality slider. What it represents is -- at the default setting - something that presents an excellent quality outcome in a reasonable timeframe. Slide it upwards, and the time it takes to render increases exponentially, but the quality increase is barely visible IMHO. That's my experience anyway. Some people swear by it. But as I say, I ignore it and have never been disappointed with my end product. And I am a perfectionist Virgo!

The other thing is that many people who have put it on 100% have found that it crashes the program since their computer is not up to the extra drag on resources. You have never seen fit to share with us your computer set-up, so I have no idea what might happen. But all I can say is, try it out and see if (a) your computer can handle it and (b) you can detect any significant increase in quality with the (significant) extra time it takes to render at 100%.

[tjames]

Ken,

Thanks for the reply. My question relates to using a template when in the burn module. When there, I click on the icon in the lower left and select disc template manager. An option there is to create a "new" template. No option to "add" like under "tools" disc template manager. So when I create a "new" template with the burn properties I want, VBR (ghosted) does not seem to be an option. I now also see that I can select either the default template or I can customize when I select "change mpeg settings" after clicking on the middle icon lower left. So I guess with the selections available, I can choose what I want. Should have looked closer. Disc space has not been an issue so far for me when making hybrids so maybe using CBR is a good option??? What are your thoughts?

To answer your other question, I am trying to follow the practice of importing a VSP file into the burn module (or going straight to the burn step after editing) rather than importing a previousely rendered file. I have an HP with an i7 bought with this type of work in mind. I really don't have any issues to speak of other than "jerky" preview issues while editing....something I am working on

Thanks again Ken

[Ken Berry]

Hmmm... I had never noticed that VBR was greyed out in the Burn Module's Disc Template Manager. Mind you, I never used that facility before. I simply changed the settings in the MPEG properties box, as you have now discovered. But while on the subject of the Disc Template Manager, the default template which appears when you select AVCHD - at least on my VS12 - is 'HD 1440'. It certainly shows VBR (unchangeable) though it is set at 15000 kbps. However, you can vary this upwards to 18000, and change the audio to Dolby 3/2, as well as setting the frame format to 1920 x 1080. You can even change the name of that template -- as I did -- to AVCHD 1080, and it sticks.

AS for using CBR with hybrid discs, it would certainly get around your problem with the too low average bitrates down below 12000... and quality is normally uniformly high with CBR. The only downside with CBR is normally that the files are bigger, and this of course counts when you are burning to a single layer DVD. But if your projects are less than 20 minutes, again this is not a major issue.

[tjames]

Ken...

Ya on VS2, at least for me, the "default" template is VBR and cannot be changed. If I create a new template it configures itself as CBR and cannot be changed. And if I choose to "customize" it ends up being VBR and that cannot be changed. The bit rate can be changed in any one of these cases.

Thanks
Tyler