Prtinted images are always dark

[jparnold]

My favourite processing lab ALWAYS seems to print my photos DARKER than what they appear on my monitor and also darker than they appear when I print them. I use my processing lab as after a trip I have hundreds of photos to print.
The processing lab used to have a feature which if selected would ENHANCE every photo during the printing process. Now the customer has to manually select ENHANCE every image. When ENHANCE was selected the photos were NOT printed dark.
I have tried batch processing ALL my images with SMART PHOTO FIX before I have them printed without any improvement.
Can anyone suggest the best adjustment I can employ to my images which will counteract the lab from printing too dark.

I scanned the printed photo in an attempt to include in this post but my scanner is old and doesn't result in an image which represents the darkness correctly.

[Tadjio]

Smart Photo Fix cannot be used in a Batch process, as you have found out.

I would suggest you try "Adjust Gamma Correction (Shift+G)".
You may have to look under Customize \ Unused Commands for "Gamma Correction" and put it on a Menu or Toolbar.

You might try a setting of say 1.2 but I guess you won't know until you get the print back

[df]

My favourite processing lab ALWAYS seems to print my photos DARKER than what they appear on my monitor and also darker than they appear when I print them.

Honestly I'd try a different printing service if you've done nothing different yet now they are printing dark, but the big red flag here is that you can print them and they look correct. Question, when you save the files as a jpeg, if you click Options what do you have enabled/disabled? You want to make sure that you have Embed ICC Profile enabled, Standard Encoding, and I use Compression of 1 but that's because I don't like throwing away data.

[jparnold]

Question, when you save the files as a jpeg, if you click Options what do you have enabled/disabled? You want to make sure that you have Embed ICC Profile enabled, Standard Encoding, and I use Compression of 1 but that's because I don't like throwing away data.

I have Standard Encoding
Embed ICC Profile 'ticked'
Chroma Subsampling set at NONE
Compression factor set at 7 (this I chose so that the modified image is not saved at a much larger size than the original)

I'd try a different printing service

I have tried two different services but wasn't satisfied with them either (for other reasons)

I wasn't aware that SMART PHOTO FIX could be used in batch mode. I HAVE used it in batch mode but maybe PSP applies the same changes it determined for the first image to all the others without actually 'testing' each separate image. Does anyone know if this is true?

[ronzie]

First you need to understand that PSPPX3 does not control printer color and density, just color management for your monitor and soft proofing.

Is your monitor calibrated and profiled? Have you entered the monitor profile in PSPP's color management setup?

See if you can obtain print profiles from your lab for their processor and papers used. If not find out what processor model they use and what papers.

Some lab profiles are available on this site:

http://www.drycreekphoto.com/icc/


Browse the states on the left of the page looking for the lab processor manufacturer and model number, then the papers used. These may come close to the soft proof you need.

Also read the links there for color management overview.

Second, you need to be sure your monitor is calibrated and profiled correctly. You also need to insure that in Windows the correct monitor profile is being used so it shows up as available in PSPP CM settings.

If your monitor is an LCD type with florescent or LED back lighting they typically out of the box have their back light illumination set to 100% for 300 ft/cd so they look good in a brightly lighted store environment. The correct illumination should result in about 125 ft/cd with maximum white transparency of a white chip on the screen. To get this set the Economode or whatever backlight life or efficiency setting to whatever percent results in 125 ft.cd. You'll find in your monitor specs the ft/cd amount at 100% or maximum illumination. While you are in your monitor settings turn off any auto dynamic contrast feature that causes contrast to vary with subject matter. Too much backlight illumination frequently results in bad monitor display linearity from black to white. Also, be sure ambient light is minimal in falling on the monitor face.

One thing you do not want to is have your video card settings fight your monitor card setting. Now, I am assuming you do not have a monitor calibration system. So first go into your PC display card settings and set to linear or default the response curves for master and all color curves including gamma, brightness etc. Then in PSPP run through the monitor calibration process first. Get the best black and white chips luminance first and then color balance (R,G,B) available with the monitor controls. If you then need to you can touch up the final adjustment for color null with the video driver curves in Win.

If you are serious about monitor profiling get a device to accomplish this.

Here is a forum you can reference searching for print matching as a subject:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/forum.asp?forum=1003

This site has some useful color test images:

http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/down ... _page.html

I use the one with the four people in the bottom row and the gray scale on the right side. In addition, get a suitable gray scale image from this page. Now bring up these images in PSPP for sizing only and save them in the appropriate size, resolution, and format for sending to your lab to get hard copy test prints for comparison. Do NOT make any color adjustments yet in PSPP and instruct the lab not to do any kind of enhancements. These test targets have already been edited to produce standard print quality.

When you get the prints back view them in a typical viewing light that your print viewers might use. Now bring up first the gray scale using PSPP on your monitor and if necessary adjust for fine tuning your video card master channel or monitor controls to get the best luminance match to your print. You can then adjust the individual channels in your monitor and display driver to null out any color and match the color of the print paper (white chip). Now bring up the color test image. Adjust in your video driver or monitor saturation for color intensity (usually called color in the monitor) and hue (phase) on the monitor so the prominent colors match the color test print to your satisfaction. If you do get a print profile to use as soft proof make the print comparisons in soft-proof mode, typically using perceptual rendering.

Browse that forum for color management threads. The best type of flat panel monitors for photo editing are S-IPS or S-PVA which have a wider angle of view for consistent color viewing. You might consider for serious work a second monitor just for photo editing that you can calibrate. For general PC work leave a less expensive type on so your back light is conserved on your photo monitor. If the dual monitor approach appeals to you search that forum for recommendations. You'll see my name there as "ronzie".

Finally there is one "gotcha" in monitor vs. print matching. The physics behind viewing a print and a monitor image are very different. For viewing on a monitor pixels are adjacent and are their own light source (even if back lighted) so the pixels are fused by the viewer's visual system. The pixels use red, green, and blue as primary colors and that goes to your eyes directly except for glare filters, etc. In printing physics colors are layered over a "white" reflecting surface as filters. The light getting to your eye is filtered through each layer of cyan, magenta, and yellow for a wet process print. For an ink jet or offset press type print it is still the same physics but perhaps with additional black and additional inks added all as filtered layers. The monitor physics is termed additive color and the print physics is known as subtractive color referring to the overlaid filter dye/ink system.

Because of the difference in the physics of sourced additive color vs. reflective filtered subtractive color the monitor will appear to display more vivid contrast and color and the two technologies will not match exactly in appearance but you can get close enough to approximate the designed results by antipating the difference.

[jparnold]

Thanks Ronzie,

I am aware that monitors can represent images incorrectly if not set up correctly and Windows needs the correct drivers installed both for the video card AND the monitor.

I am NOT attempting to compare what I see on my monitor with the printed photos.

All I know is that most printed photos look too dark even when viewed in optimum lighting conditions and I am trying to determine if there is something I can do in batch mode to increase the brightness of the images so that the prints come out NOT dark.

Maybe my images are too dark to start with but appear ok on my monitor.

I have found some information about my photo lab (which uses Fuji machines and paper here in Sydney Australia) in their FAQ section as follows -

I am doing my own color correction. Which color space profile should I use?

If you are performing your own color correction using an external image editing software package, we recommend that you use an sRGB color space profile.

I assume that I select this profile in COLOR MANAGEMENT>COLOR MANAGEMENT emulated device profile - please advise if this is incorrect

Here is an example of an image which looks bright enough when I view it but the printed photo is much darker. Actually the print appears to have more contrast than the image file. The sky is a much deeper blue and the ocean is extremely dark blue on the print..
I would appreciate it if someone with more knowledge of color/brightness/contrast/histogram values than me can tell me if the image is about right (and that the print should be ok and not dark.



I am starting to wonder if the photo lab prints with too much color saturation.
Anyway I am including the images (downloaded from the web site mentioned) with my next batch of images I get printed as they also include greyscale. If the photo lab is printing too dark and/or too much color saturation it will show up immediately.
BTW the images at the web site mentioned look much the same on my monitor (brightness/color saturation) as most of the images taken by myself so my monitor etc appears to be adjusted correctly.

Thanks

[Tadjio]

I would appreciate it if someone with more knowledge of color/brightness/contrast/histogram values than me can tell me if the image is about right (and that the print should be ok and not dark. Thanks

I loaded your ships into my PSP and looked at the Histogram pallette.
They look fine to me - not over-bright or over-saturated.

This is the RGB Histogram:-

RGB Image.jpg (56.01 KiB) Viewed 11191 times

and this is the HSL Histogram showing Saturation and Lightness:-

HSL Image.jpg (59.64 KiB) Viewed 11191 times

Did you try my Gamma Adjustment suggestion?

[jparnold]

No I haven't tried your gamma adjustment.
They are virtually identical with what I get (using the originals nut resized as I did to include in a post).

If you believe that this image appears ok then that proves to me that the photo lab is printing my photos either too dark and/or oversaturated.

What I thought I would do is to have the

useful color test images

(mentioned in an earlier reply) printed by my photo lab to see what the greyscale looks like. The more I think about it the more I believe that the photo lab is printing my photos darker and /or with extra color saturation.
Maybe I should apply a series of minus gamma (like taking a bracketed shot) saving each as a different filename and have them printed to see the differences and apply the amount of adjustment I used for the photo I prefer to all my images before printing.

[Tadjio]

No I haven't tried your gamma adjustment.
Maybe I should apply a series of minus gamma (like taking a bracketed shot) saving each as a different filename and have them printed to see the differences and apply the amount of adjustment I used for the photo I prefer to all my images before printing.

That's what I meant by 'try' my gamma adustment - do it and send it for printing. It will need to be plus gamma to counteract their darkening

[jparnold]

Thanks
Problem is though that I cannot find GAMMA adjustment. I tried using HELP which 'pointed me' to ADJUST > BRIGHTNESS AND CONTRAST > LEVELS but I don't see 'gamma' there.
I can't even find gamma in my PSP Photo X2 for Photographers book.
I can't find it in PSP9 For Dummies
And I can't find gamma in Corel PSPX3 User Guide.
Strangely I CAN find gamma correction in VIDEOSTUDIO but that's for video not images.

Please help.
Also is it possible to use this in batch mode to employ the same change to every image in my collection?

[Tadjio]

Problem is though that I cannot find GAMMA adjustment.Please help.
Also is it possible to use this in batch mode to employ the same change to every image in my collection?

As I said in my first post to you:

I would suggest you try "Adjust Gamma Correction (Shift+G)".
You may have to look under Customize \ Unused Commands for "Gamma Correction" and put it on a Menu or Toolbar.

So, just press Shift+G to nvoke it to try and then Customize it if you think it is useful.
Corel decided in their wisdom to make it 'obselete' and so hid it from view.
Yes, you can use it in a Batch Process very easily.

[ronzie]

sRGB is the color space you would use in the File/CM/Color Working Space Dialog. There actually should be two definitions available but I think this one is for the monitor. My monitor is a wide gamut that could use aRGB but I do not see a place for the printer one so I use the more limited one. Someone will have to clarify.

I'm also attaching the CM Soft proof setup I use. Where I have the S820 listed (its a long title since I created my own, one of a few for my printer for different paper and ink types) you would use the profile recommended by your printing service. (The profile is not the same as color space even though the extension is the same.) When you get the .icc or .icm file put it in your windows folder (for XP it is C:\WIN30A\SYSTEM32\spool\drivers\color). The right click on it and choose install selecting the device type as printer. Do that for each profiled paper type they supply.

In your reply to me you state something to the effect "maybe I am trying to get my monitor to match the print" which was my interpretation.

For brightness and contrast which affects saturation as well on the monitor, you need to get the monitor back light illumination down. This not done with the brightness control but with an economode or similar control. If your monitor spec reads 300 ft/cd (nits) which is default at 100% backlight try 50% economode to get 150 nits. Then calibrate your monitor following the PSPP procedure or invest in a calibrator. Again, refer to that forum for threads all about this.

By adjusting the backlight, calibrating your monitor, and entering the sRGB workspace and color profiles for the monitor and printer under CM you should get closer to what you'll get from the printing service.

Note also that mods here at my request added a monitor/laptop type to the user profile here. Place this in your user profile so you might get more helpful suggestions based on your system setup.

[David Milisock]

The oblect of color management and calibration of your display is so that you do no thave to make any adjustments to files you send out. In the case where you need to make thes on a bulk scale I would suggest another Lab.

[David Milisock]

If your images are consistantly achieving a shift that is dark it could be that your images are in a wider gamut RGB color space then the lab uses. Most labs assume sRGB and many do not utilize embedded ICC profiles. Send me an image and I'll look davidmilisock@ graphictechnology.com

[David Milisock]

Please be aware that some of the test images you've been directed to are Adobe RGB and some are sRGB. Take note to which is which and set your color management settings correctly in PSP X3. If these images do not have embedded profiles you will be required to set the working RGB in PSP X3 first before opening the image. I've tested the large Adobe MAtrix file and it is an embedded Adobe RGB image, I cannot attest to the rest of the image. If you set your RGB to sRGB the Adobe RGB image will be converted to sRGB.