Analog Capture advice please

[teigur]

I'm trying to understand what would be the most effective format for capturing from my old 8mm analog video camera.

From searching this forum as well as reading the 4 into. msgs. I getting the impression that the following settings are optimal. Is this a correct impression?

Mpeg Capture Properties:
NTSC drop frame (29.97 fps)
MPEG files
24 Bits, 720 x 480, 29.97 fps
Upper Field First
(DVD-NTSC), 4:3
Video data rate: Variable (Max. 8000 kbps)
Audio data rate: 224 kbps
MPEG audio layer 2, 48 KHz, Stereo

Is there an advantage to using AVI vs mpeg? Clearly, the AVI file is larger. 2hours of video at 720 x 480 results in approx. 120GB of data. Mpeg results in a substantially compressed file, approx. 1.5GB.

My systems performance and disk storage available is not an issue.

So, I guess my quession is: To capture the best quality possible with Video coming via an analog input from a 8mm video camera the optimal settings and file format would be? Also, Lower Field First or Upper Field First?

I will appreciate your opinions.

-Thom

[DVDDoug]

If you are going to do any editing (other than cut & splice) you should not use MPEG. MPEG is "lossy" compression, and it has to be decoded & re-coded for editing. Going through the lossy compression step twice will degrade the video.

On top of that, Video Studio (version 8, at least) has trouble editing MPEGS. I got so frustrated with the infamous "lip sync", that I bought another special-purpose MPEG editor.

MPEG encoding is also very CPU intensive (unless you have a capture card with a hardware MPEG encoder). You need a very fast computer, and you shouldn't multitask while captureing real-time analog to MPEG. This in not a problem if you capture to AVI, and convert to MPEG later. Once the video is captured to a digital format, the computer can take it's time and you can multitask... Its OK if the CPU gets interrupted during a digital MPEG encode.

[teigur]

Good detail - thanks. I'm running Studio 9. I will be doing quite a bit of editing. I'm moving all my old 8mm tapes, about 30 hours worth, to DVD. I'll be spliting the video into a number of smaller files once captured then building my projects from there with added audio tracks, some voice over, titles, transitions, menu's etc. I'm runing dual 2.8GHz Xeons with 8GB of RAM and 800GB of disk so I've got the resources to deal with this. I'm capturing the video from my old Nikon VN-310 8mm via an AirLink USB Capture device. Studio doesn't seem to have any problem capturing with this device.

After playing with Pinnacle Studio 8 & 9 I got so frustrated with the application crashing that I decided to give Ulead a try. So far, the few projects I played with it's been great.

I'm currently running with an ATI FireGL V3100 but have a faster ATI card with built-in capture if I need it. So far, the V3100 is working fine.

So - using AVI the upper/lower frame stuff doesn't apply?

Sorry if I seem a little slow with this. My background is with vector and bitmap graphics, not video, so I'm slowly trying to figure all this out.

-Thom

[THoff]

Is there an advantage to using AVI vs mpeg? Clearly, the AVI file is larger. 2hours of video at 720 x 480 results in approx. 120GB of data. Mpeg results in a substantially compressed file, approx. 1.5GB.

The quality you'll get from those two encoding options aren't comparable. The AVI number you quoted is for UNCOMPRESSED AVI. If you compress it lossless using the Huffyuv codec, you'll cut the disk space requirements in half without losing any detail. If you record to DV AVI format (using a Canopus analog-to-digital converter or a camcorder, for instance), then you need about 13GB/hour.

If you have two hours of video encoded into an 1.5GB MPEG format, you'll wind up with really low quality and/or lower-than-DVD resolution. At 8000Kbps that is often used in UVS for one-hour videos, you'll need about 4GB of disk space, so fitting two hours into 1.5GB is optimistic at best.

[teigur]

Excellent input, thank you. With this info, some searching on Huffyuv and Canopus, along with another 3-4 hours reading I now know more about video codecs and compression than I thought I needed.

The result was well worth it. AVI file size is now down to 80GB with good quality. Now, if Studio would quit crapping out when splitting and saving clips I'd be on my way.

Thanks again for the help.
-Thom

[GuyL]

To answer your field order question, when capturing analog video you want to use upper field first.

[GuyL]

To answer your field order question, when capturing analog video you want to use upper field first.

[GeorgeBW]

Hi,

Your bitrate also looks a bit rich for standard 8mm AV capture.. 4000-5000Kbps is usually ample for composite video.. You cant get the clips any better than the original video.. so the extra bitrate is only padding out the file size.. you could reduce the captured AVI a bit more if you wanted to..

Best wishes
George

[DiscCoasterPro]

Hello all. Please allow me to ask a related question. I'm very new to video editing. I have a ton of analog stuff to capture. I purchased what I thought was an ok external analog to digital converter. I believe now its just a cheap piece of junk. Its called Video Home XTV 2.0. The software that came with it only allows mpeg captures with no option for field order. The captured mpeg-2 file ends up as lower field first. Also, after a very long capture I start getting audio to video sync problems that make me stop the capture and save the file and start over.

I just ordered the Canopus model 300 because I thought it would do a better job. I was planning on saving my captures to AVI files, do my editing, save again to AVI, and then open up DVD Workshop and set chapters and menus. This is what I have been doing with pretty good success, but I don't know if this is the right approach.

Are you saying that I should find a software setting somewhere with this Canopus device that I should set to AVI Upper Field First because its an analog capture ???? Boy I'm lost on all this field order stuff.

I also would like to mix some DV-AVI clips from my dig. camcorder into the same DVD project as some of my analog captures (VS9)

any advise or explanation would be greatly appreciated.

thanks.

[heinz-oz]

You mentioned a dig. camcorder. Does that have an AV in port? Most modern digicams do have it.

If it does, use that port to connect your old camcorder and the firewire connection from your digicam to the PC. Problem licked. All clips will have the same properties

[Ken Berry]

Sorry, HeinzOz, but it is not quite that simple. I have a Canon digital video camera with an AV-in port, but it does not have direct pass-through capacity and the manual makes that clear. I am, however, supposed to be able to copy from an analogue camera using that port and recording it on my DV cassette in the digital camera. Only I have never been able to get that to work either!! So I use either an external capture box or my internal TV capture card, both of which work just fine.

But this brings me to DiscCoasterPro's dilemma. Using my external capture box, I get the usual Upper Field First for my analogue captures (which are restricted to mpegs with this box). This is fine and I proceed accordingly.

But with my TV capture card, I can capture AVI and MPEGs, and with these, I get Lower Field First even when capturing exactly the same analogue video from exactly the same analogue video camera. Again, fine, and again I proceed accordingly. Everything to date has worked out just fine, regardless of which capture device I use.

The simple answer, DiscCoasterPro, is that there is really no simple answer. *Most* capture devices will capture analogue video using Upper Field First, but there are some (a few, like my TV card) that will capture analogue using Lower Field First. I don't know the Canopus box you are buying (but have read about it and am envious). But go with the settings it suggests.

Usually, the capture device will automatically detect which is the appropriate Field Order, but sometimes -- though rarely -- they might get it wrong. No need to panic. If you appear to be capturing bad quality or the straight lines in captured videos appear to break up or shear when there is movement, then it is likely that you have captured using the wrong Field Order. Simply manually reset your capture device to capture using the other Field Order and see if that improves things (as it usually will).

When I say that I proceed accordingly, it means that I make a single video out of my captures which share the same Field Order and use that Field Order in my project settings for the end video. In other words, I make one or more videos out of all the clips that I captured Upper Field First, or all those captured Lower Field First. I don't try to mix into one video clips that were captured with different Field Orders. This is because I have been suffering under a perhaps mistaken belief that Video Studio cannot properly handle mixed field orders in the one video (though others have recently suggested they have done so successfully). If I really have to mix clips taken with differing Field Orders, I do it in Ulead's DVD Workshop, which I know can handle such a mix with no problems.

Good luck!!

[THoff]

I have an ADVC 300, so if you have any questions about that, just holler.

[DiscCoasterPro]

Guys, thanks much for the help and support understanding my not understanding. I do haved a Panasonic GS200 camcorder with digital passthrough however there were two reasons for my purchasing the xtv20 box and now the Canopus 300.

The first reason was that I didnt' know if running stuff through my camcorder would prematurely wear it out. Secondly, in an attempt to get the best result possible, I (perhaps foolishly) assumed a dedicated device would do a better job.

This whole field order thing is really confusing to me. The more I try to read about it, the more confusing it gets.

If a single frame is read twice by a TV, half and half, and if each half exists in each frame, I can't help but wonder what the difference is in field order. It seems to me that if both upper and lower are present, the tv can pick what it likes. LOL .. Dumb huh? but thats how this mashed potato brain is working Then I realized .. lol .. that the TV must always start at the top, and its up to the frame to present the correct starting point. Hmm, what if I just turned my TV on a little later? <smile> I gotta laugh cause there's no more hair to pull out.

THoff .. how do you like that capture device, do you believe it really does do a noticably better job than most others or at least a reliable one?

thanks,
dcp

[heinz-oz]

I'd give that pass through a go, I'm sure you'll like it. I have a Panasonic GS400 and it works fine, except that the device control of MSP cannot control the analog device. Hence, if I just want to copy an analog tape to the PC for simple editing, like trimming the ends, add lead in and trailer etc. I let the capture just getting one huge clip. If however, I need to do a lot of editing, like rearranging clips etc. I prefer to record on the GS400 to DV tape because I can then control the camcorder with the device control in MSP. I guess limiting the capture file size to something like 500 MB or 1 Gig would also do the trick.

[DiscCoasterPro]

heinz .. another dumb question. The pass through, if I read correctly, works in playback mode without a tape in the camcorder. While passing through, does the camcorder tape drive mechanism free wheel, or spin? Is there any sound of moving parts while passing through or is it simply using the power on and the LCD.

thanks,
dcp