Looking for new prosumer camcorder. Which to buy?

[maxfrost01]

Hi,

I've had good service from my Sony HDR-HC1E for the last six years but I'm now looking to move on and move up.
But which HD camera should I be looking at? mpeg2 or AVCHD? Sony or something else? And there is sure to be technology out there that didn't even exist six years ago!
But where do I go to get recommendations and reviews of what is currently available? And what do I need to look for to future proof my purchase?

Suspect there is a thread in here somehwere that covers this, or maybe someone knows of other websites where I can get user reviews.

Help, please!

[Black Lab]

I'm not going to get into tape vs. hdd, CMOS vs. CCD, MPEG-2 vs. AVCHD, etc. - there are pros and cons for all of them. All I will say is I love my Canon XH-A1s.

[cobo04]

Points to concider on digital camcorders.

1. - where do you intend to shoot video? If - up a mountain, in hot or cold (outside usual climate conditions) weather - like Egypt in summer or the artic in winter. Be near a high audio sound or word works (vibration), then avoind a hard drive camera at all cost, mainly as the drive packs up or fails to record under these conditions.

2. how long a shoot without access to PC or power (battery and storage media availability).

3. as you are after a prosumer camera, the weigt of the newer digitals has come down a lot. So this has to be taken into acccount, in this I mean, wind/gales. the older camera were heavy and it would take quite a wind to shift them off the shoulder, the newer lighter ones are a lot easier to shift in light wind, so not so much shoulder more tripod these days.

To summarize - if you intend to use camera in condiditions (see 1.) then avoid HDD, go for SD cards. Point 2, if this is the case, then make sure you have enough or a laptop to offload existing. Also a couple of spare batteries never came amiss, mainly as camera batteries are usually freely available as like AA cells!! Finally - they are a lot lighter, which a bit like LCD display monitors makes like a lot easier but with issues, a light camera is more like a kite then the older lump camera which could hold down a tent in a gale.

for me, I went looking for a small hand held camera but with 3CMOS and full HD without HDD. After nearly a year of books, internet searching and shops to actaully handle many camera - I went for the Panasonic HCD-TM700, 32G on board and plugged in a 32G SDHC card, record time for the 64G (camera starts on internal, then switches to exterrnal memory itself) is 5H 37M, the small battery supplies offers 1H24M and takes 2H30M to recharge, so at least one spare is essential, I now have another of thhe small batteries and one large 4H 20M battery. I have used this camera in Egypt in the desert without issue and sand ingress, it has been splashed with sea water, which if whipped off soon after leaves no mark and camera doesn't seem to mind. It has been frozen, wel I was so camera must have been in Oslo, Norway in mid winter, shooting the northern lights on low light setting. video came out really well, I just got cold. So in all the cameras has lived up to it's expectations.

Hope this helps.

Colin

[maxfrost01]

Hi, Colin

Really, really appreciate you taking the time to write about your camcorder. I look at all the various manufacturers' websites from time to time but nothing beats the review of a forum user.

What format is the output? I'm editing in MPEG2 at the moment and have read some horror stories (on the forum) about editing in AVCHD using X3. How are you getting on editing footage from the Panasonic?

And I see there is a new camcorder available, the Panasonic HDC-TM900. Is this the upgrade from the one you have?

Max

[cobo04]

Max

Thanks -Although the Panasonic can output at 1080/50p. It also outputs at lower quality, so use a mixture, depending on what is needed by end user, no point shooting in HD when the final cut is to be used in Powerpoint at 320x240 !!

Output is AVCHD (MTS files) on this camera, althoguh X3 is okay at capturing these then outputting at MPG2 is needed, fiddly but, well if it works, use it until something else comes along to make it easier.

The only difference between the TM700 and the TM900 is that the TM900 is upgradable for the 3D lens addition (at cost). I have an interest in 3D but went for the TM700 mainly as the reviews from others showed that the TM700 actually has better resolution and colour rendition. Also the 3D lens addition is really only for the Panasonic 3D TV. So not a lot of real use. I much prefer my local lash up of two microDV cameras (which I got for under £20 UK each) at the standard 2.4 in separation then use 3D movie to compile into whatever format is needed for the final cut.

Hope this helps

Colin

[Ken Berry]

Just on the 50p side of things - (or 60p if your have NTSC) - you also need to factor in the software package you will be using to edit, and whether it can handle true 50/60p video. There is an increasing number of camcorders just starting to appear which, at maximum quality, can film at true 'p for progressive' rates i.e. 50 or 60 *full* frames per second, as opposed to interleaved ('i') video which films at 50i or 60i. This in understandable (?) English means that it films at 50/60 half frames (Upper Field First) per second, or, in other words, 25/30 full frames per second when the two half frames are interleaved.

That being said, a program like Video Studio X3 and its predecessors cannot yet handle true 50/60p video properly. It either chokes and comes to a standstill, or else processes the video as interleaved, in effect by dropping half the full frames, so jerky motion results. I have asked Corel when they might issue a patch or a program that can deal with this sort of video properly, but they have been unable to give me a target date. So in the meantime, you either film in lower quality (I think the camcorders can be set to film in i mode??) or else look for different software.

However, I personally am not aware exactly which other consumer-level software packages out there might be able to do this, though there must be some... Any suggestions gratefully received!!

[cobo04]

I fully understand the p/i issue and PAL/NTSC differences, too many years in broadcast TV possibly...

Anyway - apart from Adobe Premiere (is this consumer level?), there really isn't much if anything out there that has come up to speed with camcorder outputs.

Good luck plugging Corel for a true HD capable edit suite. Something is needed to cater for the growing need of the consumer and the new breed of camcorders hitting the streets.

[Ken Berry]

I'd probably include Premiere in the 'prosumer' or even professional end of the market. My only gripe with it is that in the HD area, with CS4 Premiere at any rate, is that it outputs in Adobe proprietary formats, and you have to use Adobe products then to author it.

I personally still believe, from my own experience, that VS is a good HD editor -- though as noted, there are drawbacks. But I would also agree with you that software companies like Corel need to reach more swiftly to the new breeds (plural) of camcorders which are hitting the market at ever increasing speed. That is why I raised the issue of covering true progressive video as soon as possible with Corel. However, as noted, they could not give me any dates when this is likely to happen. Probably only when enough people have these camcorders and start complaining -- loudly and direct to Corel -- that the software cannot edit their video...

[cobo04]

Ken

Yep, I'd put Adobe Premeiere and possibly Sony Vagas up there in the near pro world. Corel videostudio (all versions, well 10 up on experience), are simple to use and no nonsence video editors. I've put many hours of SD video through Corel 10, only went for X3 as 10 (and a trial I had of X2) wouldn't see my new HD camera due to the USB interface, X2 wouldn't see my Firewire SD camera nor my USB HD camera!!

Have only put about an hour or do of HD through X3 so far, none to DVD (output to video file). This worked okay, didn't have any issue with editing or writing to file. Transitions/titling etc all went as per Corel 10 ever did, but with MTS files not AVI.

Will have to create a short test DVD to put X3 throguh it's paces and see how it goes with full HD 1080/50p (PAL). possibly about 10 minutes to single layer disks, don't think I could get much more than possibly 22 minutes seeing how large HD files are. unless quality suffers.

Depending on how this goes I should have a better idea of how X3 and HD work together but from reading this forum, it doesn't seen to cope too well with this source material.

So watch this space...

Colin

[Ken Berry]

You can fit about 20 minutes of AVCHD 1920 x 1080i at 18 Mbps on a single layer DVD with X2 or MF 7SE. Those are the properties I use for my hybrid discs. But as I said above, there will be tears at bedtime if you try to use 1080p video since neither X2, X3 nor MF 7 Pro or SE are written to recognise 50/60 full frames per second at 1920 x 1080. But let us know what happens when you try... I would be more than happy to have egg on my face!!

[maxfrost01]

Hi, guys

I'm tracking your comments on editing true High Def and finding it very useful - seems to me that this is critically important if I'm about to upgrade my camcorder.

One thought: rather than use a true high def camcorder (such as the Panasonic mentioned in this thread) on a lower quality setting, it is possible to shoot at best quality (p) but then edit and output at lower quality (i) settings?

Seems to me that if I have the best quality video then a day will come when I can easily edit it using VS or some other product, but if I shoot at lower quaility I can never upgrade to full HD.

[Ken Berry]

It's a dilemma but I am not sure what you would edit the original 'p' video on to produce an interleaved 'i' video. VS cannot do it. I wonder if the software which comes with the Panasonic (and other such camcorders) can do it? Usually, such software is extremely limited, but it may at least allow this, and then you could edit the 'i' video in VS...

[cobo04]

The software that came with the Panasonic HDC-TM700 is 'not good', no where near X3 editing.

Having had a good workout on my new camera, and checked difference modes of operation. I've created a sort of list of quality v linespeed (VBR).

top HD at 1080/50p outputs about 21mps, this drops in difference modes down to HE working at just 5 mps (allowing 27 H of video on the 64MB memory - Full HD is just 1H 27M). So checking my now aging SD camera, this output at just 3.61MPS. Therefore even at its lowest operating mode, the panasonic is still better.

I'll conduct some tests on the same subject using the different modes over the next few weeks (time/work permitting) and see what this camera is capable of.

I don't want to turn this forum into a camera test but use this footage via X3 to see what best suits the editing capability of the software, this may be of use to others looking to get a new camera and edit with X3.

Colin

[Ron P.]

I don't want to turn this forum into a camera test but use this footage via X3 to see what best suits the editing capability of the software, this may be of use to others looking to get a new camera and edit with X3.

There's no problem with using this forum (Video & DVD) for this. It is an open discussion forum, and is intended for this type of discussions, and we welcome them.

[maxfrost01]

Hi, Colin

You're getting a little technical for me now
But do I understand correctly that the record time on your panasonic is only 1H 27M on full HD? And that's with the 32GB on board plus the 32GB card?

Ron - thanks for your support on this thread. Seems to me that camcorders and editing sofware are (and should be) inextricably linked.