VS 11.5+ crashes with Panasonic SD700 files

[Riv]

Just got a new Panasonic SD700. It should effectively be the same as the other Panasonic 700 camcorders like TM700 and HS700, but this one stores on memory cards only.

Now, with my VS 11.5+ (Windows XP SP3), clips whose length is 1 minute or less work fine, clips that are 2 minutes cause my VS 11.5+ to crash when I try to preview them. So, I can insert all my clips in the VS timeline. SmartProxy is on and with SmartProxy Manager I can check that the proxy files are created (although it takes a very long time).

Then I do nothing but try to play a preview of the clips. Clips that are 1 minutes or less play well. Then I have two clips that are almost exactly 2 minutes. These 2-minute clips play for some 5 or 6 seconds, then the picture halts but sound goes on for another few seconds and at roughly 10 - 12 seconds I get the typical message "this software failed, do you want to send a report to Microsoft ".

The same problem occurs whether I directly copy the MTS files from the memory card and then insert in my timeline in VS or download the clips to my hard disc with the HD Writer software that shipped with the camera and that renames them to M2TS.

This is repeatable. Rebooting does not help. I installed the latest directx today. The total duration of my test projects have been 2 - 4 minutes.

All my test clips are 1920 x 1080i PAL, with a bit rate of 16800. The Panasonic software is able to play the clips well. Project settings are default DVD.

I'd like to be able to make AVCHD discs of my footage as well as standard DVDs for friends and family who don't have BlueRays yet. A year ago I was able to edit some footage from a friend's camcorder and produce both DVDs and AVCHD discs from that material. The clip properties then were close to the same as what I am using today. But now I cannot even get started.

Any suggestions on how to fix this? Is my HW just too slow? Are there any facts that suggest a later VS version might work better? Would a later version really work with my HW?

Best Regards,
Riv

[Ken Berry]

Can we assume your VS 11.5+ has all the patches applied? (I am assuming it does, since the crucial one was the Hot Pack one which converted VS 11+ to VS 11.5+ and dealt with many of the issues the program was having with the then quite new AVCHD format...) I am also assuming that when you loaded HD Writer, the necessary Panasonic version of the AVCHD codec was installed. (Panasonic is notorious for tweaking the codec with its own slight variants...)

Have you thought about downloading and trying out the trial version of VS X3?

[Riv]

Ken,

I am not aware of any more recent patches than the ones that made it 11.5+, so that was quite a while ago. The exact version in Help/About is 11.5.0157.2 Plus. I tried to check for any later ones on the support pages but couldn't find any. Please let me know if I've missed something.

The Panasonic HD Writer software itself tells me it is the latest version and there are no updates. And that software does play the clips ok. So, at least the necessary codecs seem to be available to the HD Writer. I don't know how to check which codec it is and if and how it is available for VS. Any pointers you could provide on that one?

I could do with the VS X3 trial but am slightly concerned about by HW performance. And if things go wrong, how can I fully revert to the 11.5+? With some very old versions of Photoimpact, I've got some bad experiences of Ulead software not fully removing itself with an uninstall and that causing problems.

Riv

[JohnDale]

I advise never insert MTS/M2TS files into the VS11.5 time line. Don't let VS create your proxy files. Turn it off and make your own. Which you can keep as long as you want. I have found letting VS create proxy files is not the best way to do it. Batch convert you MTS files to an easily editing format by converting them with the batch convert tool. I normally convert to standard deff mpeg. Put them in a folder called ???? project proxy files. Then when you are finished editing rename that folder. Then open the project and use the relink function to relink to the MTS files. I have used this process, which was originally posted by another user, many many times and find it much better than creating proxy files.

[Riv]

JohnDale,

Thank you for the tip, that was a new idea to me. Unfortunately it still doesn't seem to be a fool-proof way of handling this with my setup.

The batch convert works. So VS is able to read the original files and produce standard DVD mpeg from them. But assuming I understood your approach correctly, after the re-link phase I effectively have the MTS or M2TS files on the timeline and again, the 2 minute clips cause VS to crash, the shorter ones don't seem to.

But it does not crash every time. I'm still working to see if there is a pattern for when it crashes and when not. Sometimes it crashes almost immediately after starting to render when I Share File, even if the resulting project after my edits is only some 15 seconds long but at least once I was able to produce a full 2-minute AVCHD file.

I will try out the X3 trial version later to see if that helps.

As another issue, assuming I can get your model working for me, relink only seems to work one file at a time, rather than a full folder at a time. The proxy files are xxx.mpg and the originals are xxx.mts or xxx.m2ts. VS 11.5+ does not seem to understand that if xxx.mpg is relinked to xxx.m2ts, then yyy.mpg should be relinked to yyy.m2ts in the same folder and it asks for the relink one by one. That's ok in my tests with just a few files, but in a project of a lot of files, that wouldn't be very convenient. Am I missing something or is this really the only way?

[Riv]

The issues in the self-made proxy seemed to relate to SmartRender. With Smart Render turned off, VS does not crash in the Share File stage. Looks like the approach of handling the proxying manually rather than with Smart Proxy may indeed work for me but I need to try with longer projects to know for sure.

This one still remains:

...relink only seems to work one file at a time, rather than a full folder at a time. The proxy files are xxx.mpg and the originals are xxx.mts or xxx.m2ts. VS 11.5+ does not seem to understand that if xxx.mpg is relinked to xxx.m2ts, then yyy.mpg should be relinked to yyy.m2ts in the same folder and it asks for the relink one by one.

Before going to edit any longer projects, I'd like to understand how to get about with this.

[JohnDale]

Ok. This is how I edit AVCHD from my camera. 1st I convert the AVCHD to HDmpeg then if you still have trouble editing HDmpeg you can do what I do and convert the HDmpeg to SDmpeg. Edit the SDmpeg and then relink to the HDmpeg. I cannot see any quality loss. I know this is a lot of converting and takes time but the actual time you are in front of the computer is minimal and it still works better and is a more flexible solution than enabling VS to create proxy files.

[Ken Berry]

John -- I think you need to explain what you mean by 'HDmpeg'... I say this since AVCHD is of course HD mpeg in its own right -- high definition mpeg-4 to be exact. I am assuming you mean HD mpeg-2 which is properly called HDV. But it would be useful for others if you would confirm this...

[JohnDale]

Thanks Ken for clarifying this point. You are correct I convert to HD mpeg-2 / HDV. Which is much easier to edit but for some reason I still have some minor difficulty in editing this format (although nowhere near the problems with AVCHD). This is why I still create proxy files.

[Riv]

Thank you both for your quick responses again.

This is probably just my ignorance on how to work with the format details, but I'm not sure I got the full picture yet.

In the Batch Convert, I have half a dozen options for the target files, including 'MPEG -4 files (*.mp4)' and 'MPEG files (*.mpg, *.mpeg,...*.mts, *.m2ts)' The other options don't look relevant (are they?) If I select the 'MPEG files', the Options in the Batch Convert dialog box only let me set a frame rate of about 8000 and resolution of max 720 x 576. That doesn't look too HD for me. So I must be missing something in here... How do I batch convert to HDV? And will that then help me work with the manual proxy approach so that I don't have different extensions that make me relink the files one by one? Or are you suggesting that I could actually work with those HDV files without a need for the proxying?

Apropos, as a workaround I can batch rename my standard proxy mpeg files to *.m2ts before putting them in the timeline. VS doesn't seem to mind that. The relink is then easy as the full file name including the extension is the same in the original and in the proxy file. Not very elegant, though, and might lead to other unexpected problems later.

[erdna]

Rev, if you split the >2 min file in shorter parts, does it play then?

[Riv]

Erdna,

As in Multitrim, or splitting the clip with the Scissors symbol that is next to the jog slider? Good question. Why haven't I tried that before this

But now that I have tried it, no that does not help. Selecting Multitrim from the Tools menu, VS crashes already when I'm am trying to select a location in my clip to use as a starting point. With the Scissors I am actually able to click on the right position in the clip and do the split. I made the first such part 15 seconds only and tried preview but VS crashed again. (It played again for some 5 seconds, then the picture froze, sound went on as before and interestingly this time the sound continued until the end of that 15 seconds. Without the split it never got quite that far. But in the end it crashed before doing anything else).

Was this what you had in mind?

Riv

[erdna]

Yes Riv. I mean the sissors. I do own TM700 Pal, and VS11.5+, VSX2, and VSX3. I just tried VS11.5+ with a TM700 AVCHD 16800kb/s and didn't get any problems viewing, creating an AVCHD file,...Unfortunately the clip was only about 30 sec long. So you get (only?) problems with 2min+ clips. If confirmed I will record a 2min+ TM700 clip tomorrow and feedback about applying in VS11.5+. I do know that the Pana files have something "special"...In VSX2 and X3 (not in VS11.5+!) I need to put an image or clip from another AVCHD camcorder (XR500) at the start of the timeline, in order to be able to create/render an AVCHD file when smart render is on, which I allways use for faster results without problems.

[Riv]

Thank you for your help, Erdna.

The camera is so new that I only have a handful of clips. But so far, yes, this only happens with the couple of 2-min clips (they happen to be just about exactly 2 mins). And those clips always cause VS to crash in the preview. The other clips are 1 min or less and so far the problem has never occurred with those. "Always" and "never" are a bit strong statements as I've only really tried this for less than a week but I can tell you I have done this quite a few times during that week. I haven't started the iteration of where exactly the borderline is between 1 and 2 mins.

I checked the clips that I got from the friend's camcorder a year ago that I mentioned earlier. I have about 6 GB of them. The longest single clip in that material happens to be 3 mins 22 seconds and it plays pretty well in the preview even without SmartProxy and definately doesn't systematically crash VS. And I was able to edit MTS clips copied directly from the camcorder without any specific software. I don't remember which camcorder it was exactly, it might have been a Sony. I'm pretty sure it was not a Panasonic, anyway. However, contrary to what I remembered and said earlier, there is a big difference in the properties in that the old material was 1440 x 1080 (I didn't realise you can get 16:9 with that...) while my new camera produces 1920 x 1080.

Riv

[JohnDale]

Once the files are in the batch convert window. Select save as type mpg. Then click options, compression. Media type change to mpeg 2. Put the bit rate to whatever you want and set the other options as you require. Click the general tab, click drop down arrow and set the frame size you require, frame type etc, aspect ratio. Audio type cannot be changed (HDV is mpeg audio).Dont forget to set the folder where you want the files saved.