Pro X2 and Canon HV10: Time formats

[teeeve]

I can capture video, edit and burn to DVD. However I cannot send video back to my Canon HV10.

I get this message:
"The time formats of the DV camcorder and the clip are of different systems. One is NTSC and the other is PAL."

I correctly entered "United Kingdom" and "PAL" on installation.

It is worth noting that I was able to send video to the camera from VS9.

Any advice please? Thanks.

[Ron P.]

Welcome to the forums,

What version of VS are you using? Some members have noted that even though you select the correct "region" during installation, VS seems to have an NTSC default. It doesn't get changed throughout the program. Make sure when you're ready to send it back to your DV camcorder, that the project settings are in fact PAL and not NTSC.

The easiest way to ensure that they are changed when you first are starting a project, is to have the option checked Show message when inserting first video clip into time line, in the Preferences. This way you will get a prompt, asking if you want the project settings changed to that of the video clips' properties.

Have you checked the properties of the video file(s) you're wanting to export back? Right-click on them in the time line or library and select properties. Is it NTSC or PAL?

[Trevor Andrew]

Hi

Just to add, if you use 'same as first clip' then the render should use the properties of your original file. Dv-Avi

[teeeve]

Thank you gents for your prompt replies. I am using Videostudio Pro X2.

I have two types of finalised video clips on my computer:

1. Those recorded in HDV on Canon HV10, edited in VS Pro X2 and sitting on the PC, some of which have been successfully burned to DVD-R. Properties MPEG-2 (transport stream) 25fps.
Save as project settings = PAL 25fps MPEG
Save as first clip = PAL 25fps MPEG

2. Those recorded in DV on an earlier camera, edited in MS Movie Maker or Videostudio 9, sitting on the PC or successfully burned to DVD-R or DVD-RAM, then imported back to the PC.
Properties Microsoft AVI Files - Open DML 25fps.
Save as project settings = PAL 25fps MPEG
Save as first clip = Microsoft AVI 25fps

However I have found that one file has properties of NTSC 30fps! I am not sure if I imported this particular file from DVD or whether the original remained on the PC.

Neither type of file can be sent back to the camera. I had the files already saved, (on the PC or on DVD) imported them to Pro X2 and in the share step clicked on DV or HDV recording as appropriate.

So we are looking at two camcorders, three editing/rendering programs, and DV and HDV over a four year period!

I am grateful for any further help, but I must point out that I am now on the boundaries of my understanding!

I have now checked the "Show message" box. Thanks!

Steve

[teeeve]

I have just remembered that I couldn't burn to DVD with VS9 3 or 4 years ago, so I converted to mpeg using a free download on the web.

As I have imported from these old DVDs, could this have a bearing on my problems?

Really looking for help. Thank you.

[teeeve]

Anyone? Please?

Sorry to be a nuisance.

[teeeve]

File> Project Properties > MPEG files:

PAL (25 fps)
MPEG files
24 bits, 720 x 576, 25 fps
Lower Field First
(DVD-PAL), 16:9
Video data rate: Variable (Max. 8000 kbps)
LPCM Audio, 48000 Hz, Stereo

File> Project Properties > AVI files:

NTSC non-drop frame (30 fps)
Microsoft AVI files
24 bits, 320 x 240, 30 fps
Lower Field First
Uncompressed
PCM, 48.000 kHz, 16 Bit, Stereo


On Edit > Project Options (general) I changed frame rate to 25 and now I have:

PAL (25 fps)
Microsoft AVI files
24 bits, 320 x 240, 25 fps
Lower Field First
Uncompressed
PCM, 48.000 kHz, 16 Bit, Stereo

Have I fixed things or made matters worse?

Anyone?

[Ron P.]

Boy oh boy oh boy, what a mess...

FIRST, what are the Properties of the video clips? Right-click on them in the time-line, select Properties, what are they? Post them back here.

The following is just a guess or assumption that the Project Properties were that of the video clips....

First I can see where the NTSC file is going to create problems. Are you located in a PAL or NTSC country? Changing the NTSC from 29.97fps to 30fps, is going to make that clip jittery. The program will need to create out of thin air .03 frames for every second of video. However just changing the project properties/settings does not really do anything unless you're using Smart Render. If your wanting to burn a DVD the frame rate will need to be 25fps for PAL, or 29.97 for NTSC.

Smart Render will use the project settings to render only the changed parts of the video clips. This is also where Same as Project Settings, or Same as First Video Clip, rendering comes into play. Notice I highlighted the work first. So the very first clip you insert into a project's timeline will be used in that instance of rendering.

Next is the Frame Sizes. You have one file that uses 720 x 576 and the other 2 are using 320 x 240. So you need to decide if you want the 720 x 576 down-sized to the 320 x 240 or vice-versa. If you're wanting to burn a DVD, the frame size will need to be the first 720 x 576 (PAL).

Not knowing for certain the origin of your avi files, the Field order could be incorrect. Field order is used for interlaced video, that is to be viewed on TV, mostly the older CRT sets. The newer LCD/Plasma TVs mainly will use Frames, which is denoted as Progressive scan. AVI is a container or wrapper and can hold any one of hundreds of different formats. What's important is if they are DV? If so the field order should be Lower Field First. Some other common "avi" types are recorded in digital still cameras, and use Frame based, or they can be of analog source, and then should use Upper Field First.

Ok with all that said, let me assume that you're going to burn to DVD, so we need to get your final video clip to the international DVD standards. So the video clip that is using the Frame Size of 720 x 576 should be ok. Not knowing if it is true wide-screen (16:9), we will assume it is not, so the next 2 clips which are 4:3 will need to be converted.

Your problem is going to be converting the NTSC clip to PAL. There will be 4.97 frames chopped off for every second of video. Also the frame size will need to be up-scaled from the 320 x 240 to 720 x 576. Now here is why I question the Video Clip Properties, not the Project Properties. Right-click on the Video Clip in the time-line or Library, select Properties, what are they? Compare them to the 720 x 576 clip (if that is the actual clip's properties). If they are what your project settings are, they will need to be up-scaled. If not then you might be better of, and just now know it yet...

[teeeve]

Phew!

Thanks, Ron I was feeling all alone out here!

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. I was also under the impression that you used AVI for "back to camera" and MPEG for DVD, but reading the manual again last night I see that MPEG is the standard for HDV "back to camera". I am trying to get both DV and HDV back to camera, whilst inadvertently saving files as NTSC!

Overnight, I have found an idiot's guide to the various file formats which I need to study.

Thank you for your full and informative reply. I need to sit down and work through every point you make.

The truth is, I take very good footage and I am an absolute wizz at editing. I just have a blank spot on the other stuff.

Thanks Ron , you are a PAL (pun intended)

Steve

[teeeve]

Hi Ron, here goes¡K¡K¡K¡K¡K¡K¡K

Project settings are now:

PAL (25 fps)
Microsoft AVI files
24 bits, 720 x 576, 25 fps
Lower Field First
Uncompressed
PCM, 48.000 kHz, 16 Bit, Stereo

PAL (25 fps)
MPEG files
24 bits, 720 x 576, 25 fps
Lower Field First
(DVD-PAL), 16:9
Video data rate: Variable (Max. 8000 kbps)
LPCM Audio, 48000 Hz, Stereo

I have today captured a video clip and a prompt asked me if I wanted to change the project settings for Smart Render. I clicked ¡§yes¡¨, and now I have:

PAL (25 fps)
MPEG files
24 bits, 1440 x 1080, 25 fps
Upper Field First
(MPEG-2), 16:9
Video data rate: 25000 kbps
Audio data rate: 384 kbps
MPEG audio layer 2, 48 KHz, Stereo

An attempt to send this clip back to the same tape resulted in original error message.


I am in the UK and use PAL. My plasma TV is 1080i, 16:9, as is the camera. Here are the Video Clip Properties of every type of clip I can think of. They were captured, edited, burned and ripped over a four year period using two cameras and three editing programs.


1. PRO X2 HDV capture, basic edit, saved as videofile

MPEG-2 (Transport stream)
File size: 1,712,233 KB
Duration: 534,560 seconds
Video type: MPEG-2, Upper Field First
Total frames: 13,364 frame(s)
Attributes: 24 bits, 1440 x 1080, 16:9
Frame rate: 25.000 frames/sec
Data rate: 25000 kps
Audio type: MPEG Audio layer 2 Files
Total samples: 25,658,880 Samples
Attributes: 48000 Hz, 16 Bit, Stereo
Layer: 2
Bit rate: 384 kps

2. PRO X2 HDV capture, edited, burned successfully to DVD, original file still on computer

PAL DVD
File size: 672,710 KB
Duration: 619.720 seconds
Video type: MPEG-2, Lower Field First
Total frames: 15,493 frame(s)
Attributes: 24 bits, 720 x 576, 16:9
Frame rate: 25.000 frames/sec
Data rate: Variable bit rate ( Max. 8000 kbps)
Audio type: LPCM Audio
Total samples: 29,746,560 Samples
Attributes: 48000 Hz, 16 Bit, Stereo
Layer:
Bit rate:


BUT ALSO

3. PRO X2 HDV capture, edited, burned successfully to DVD, original file still on computer

MPEG-2 (Transport stream)
File size: 4,411,338 KB
Duration: 1384.240 seconds
Video type: MPEG-2, Upper Field First
Total frames: 34,606 frame(s)
Attributes: 24 bits, 1440 x 1080, 16:9
Frame rate: 25.000 frames/sec
Data rate: 25000 kps
Audio type: MPEG Audio layer 2 Files
Total samples: 66,443,520 Samples
Attributes: 48000 Hz, 16 Bit, Stereo
Layer: 2
Bit rate: 384 kps


4. VS9 DV capture, edited, burned successfully to DVD-R, ripped from DVD-R back to computer

Microsoft AVI files ¡VOpen DML
File size: 797,961 KB
Frame rate: 25.000 frames/sec
Duration: 207.320 seconds
Data rate: 3703.13
Compression: DV Video Encoder ¡V type 2
Attributes: 24 bits, 720 x 576, 4:3 (older camera)
Total frames: 5,183 frame(s)
Compression: PCM
Attributes: 48000 Hz, 16 Bit, Stereo
Total samples: 9,951,360 samples

BUT ALSO

5. VS9 DV capture, edited, burned successfully to DVD-RAM, ripped from DVD-RAM back to computer

Microsoft AVI files ¡VOpen DML
File size: 5,383,564 KB
Frame rate: 25.000 frames/sec
Duration: 1527.120 seconds
Data rate: 2934.05 kbps
Compression: DV Video Encoder ¡V type 1
Attributes: 24 bits, 720 x 576, 4:3 (older camera)
Total frames: 38,178 frame(s)
Compression: DV Audio ¡V PAL
Attributes: 48000 Hz, 16 Bit, Stereo
Total samples: 73,301,760 samples

Just to re-iterate, I have no problem burning to DVD-R or DVD-RAM. I can get video back from DVD to computer, but I can¡¦t get video back to the camera (I was able to do so with VS9). I can¡¦t find the obvious NTSC video right now, but I will delete it when found, as I have every file that I want, either on DVD or in the computer. The old 4:3 videos fill the screen due to an auto setting I have on the TV.

I am thinking that if I can set up my PRO X2 correctly, I will be able to back up my videos to camcorder in HDV, thus clearing my computer for the next batch.

Your further advice is much appreciated. Thank You.

Steve