HDV editing

[Frank Burch]

Yes Steve, I'm well aware of the difference. But the situation here in France is a bit different. We get HD signals over the ordinary antenna, and Arte, the French-German channel is often broadcast in HD. We do not pay extra for that.
Our terms here are also a bit different, because "HD ready" means 720p and for 1080i it is called "full HD". But now all the sets in the shop are full HD with an HD tuner. More and more programmes will be HD but the question of format has not yet been decided - 720p or 1080i. p would be logical, but apparently i is cheaper to broadcast.

[weaver]

There are many issues in so called HD transmission:

First we have to differentiate the way of transmission.

Your HD (HDV) camera will send the highest quality of the pictures to your full HD or HD ready monitor (does not really matters which one - the difference is in tuner stage - what you do not use in this case).

We you receive the signal from somewhere, the quality depends of the way of selected transmission. Prime TV channels try to allocate as much bandwidth as possible (it costs lot of money).
So here in Europe the really high quality services go up to 18 Mbps.

If the source of the signal is OK you will get the best quality at home (still far away from the studio quality of over 400 Mbps).

In some channel bouquets (providers offer you many TV channels in a single bunch) the bandwidth can be dramatically reduced down to less than 10 Mbps for HD and less than 2 Mbps for SD. This is already a very big quality step down, however the picture is still HD but sometimes it is very bad. Bad colours, pixel and block problems.
To receive their signal you need a HD tuner (when built-in your TV is full HD if not it is HD ready and you need an external Set Top Box or tuner) usually with condition access smart card.

The next issue is, that generally in the world there is not enough HD content (in comparison to non HD content), therefore many TV stations or content providers upscale their high quality SD content into HD. (In some countries up to 60% of HD transmission is just a simple SD upscale)

The SD content comes usually on SDI (270Mbps) interface from the recordings of the last about 20 years or from SDI film scanners. This is not really a real HD from the picture quality, but is much more better than the same signal on SD.
We have here in Europe several stations transmitting simultaneosly in both formats HD and SD - easy to compare.

Regarding the HD formats for the TV viewer it does not make to much sense, usually you cannot see the difference as in most cases the different formats are reconverted into the transmission format, what is usually 1080i, does not matter what was the original.

The 1080p is mostly used for film to video conversion, as the film has anyway just a single frame in 1/24 s, so it can be scanned in film scanner easily in p or in i format. In both cases it will be the same as the film frame is the same. So it ie easier to scan with a single run progressive scanner, and not twice, interlaced i.e there is a 1 TV line difference between the two scans of the same original.

Many video games also prefer the p formats (the use mostly bitmaps i.e. it is like a film frame in front of scanner.)

In field production the interlaced format offer smoother movements/pans than the progressive formats (it depends partially on content.)

The main problem with HD, is what you also mentioned, the panning. For HD transmission we use exclusively MPEG GOPs, ie. usually 12 (or more) frames are coupled together and only the first frame of the GOP (I Frame) is transmitted in full resolution, all other frames carries only the differences to the I Frame.
This means usually we see only 2 (or less) full frames (with full content) in a second. When there is lot of panning (every pixel of the picture is changing), the system from the convertor to your TV set at home will have some troubles to recover all pixels and the picture will loose the continuity (freezes, blocks, jumps or other degradation), or is just stressed because of signal processing
These degrations will be more, when the transmission bandwidth is reduced.

[Frank Burch]

Thanks Weaver for this very informative reply. But what is your conclusion, do you record in progressive or in 1080i?
In the Canon HV 20 manual under "HDV 25fps" it says: This setting will give you HD video at 1080i with 25 fps.
For progressive mode you combine this setting with "cine mode". This gives the "cinematic look" whatever that means.

With the panning problem and the doubtful benefits of progressive I feel inclined to stick with 1080i.
Was meinen Sie dazu?

[weaver]

Thanks Weaver for this very informative reply. But what is your conclusion, do you record in progressive or in 1080i?
In the Canon HV 20 manual under "HDV 25fps" it says: This setting will give you HD video at 1080i with 25 fps.
For progressive mode you combine this setting with "cine mode". This gives the "cinematic look" whatever that means.

With the panning problem and the doubtful benefits of progressive I feel inclined to stick with 1080i.
Was meinen Sie dazu?

Hi Frank!

I am from the old school, so I record everything in 1080i . I bought several years ago an almost 20 years old SONY CRT HD monitor (just about 80 kg) and this is still my reference for the quality.
The new flatscreens influence to much everything, so you do not even know what you really see.
Their internal processors completelly reshape, rescale, recalculate and often recolor everything........

[Frank Burch]

Why bother peolple with questions when you can find out for yourself? Laziness I suppose, but also to get more information. Anyway in the meantime I have done a test with deinterlacing - first using the VS 10 deinterlacer and then not using it. On the 40" LCD screen I see no difference whatsoever! Makes me wonder if the deinterlacer does anything at all? Do the later versions of VS have it?

[weaver]

On the LCD screen (TV screen not a PC monitor screen) you will probably never see any difference - as they anyway deinterlace the signal - this is the main difference between CRT monitors and the new LCD/PLASMA or LED monitors.
They do not follow in the picture presentation the well known old video standards (how to present on a screen the video signal).
This happens in the internal RAMs before the screen shows the result.

[Roberto]

Well even in our little village here in the Provence I suppose there are some people who haven't got it, but not many. We pay 15 Euros per month for unlimited high-speed internet. Those who haven't got it just don't want it. But OK I agree, DVD is still the best solution and with a DVD player with upconverting the DVD's look much better.

If you want to see an example, just come to Italy, where our ex-ex-prime minister Prodi (well known to EU as also being chairmain in EU for some time), already in 1997 talked about "digital future" for Italy, and where now, after almost 15 years, just outside Milan still there is no ADSL... ))

[weaver]

In another countries it is very similar.
In big cities many people have dual or even triple connectivity (cable, DSL, wireless), on the countryside there is nothing or dial-in connection only.

Recently I saw some statistic for one of the most develepoded country in Europe.
About 40% of the population has internet connection, and in this 40% just 49% of the users uses the internet at least once a month!!!!!!

[Frank Burch]

Looks like France is leader in Europe. I believe most of the country is covered by ADSL. Competition between providers is strong. The best but most expensive is the national telecom, but some ofthe others are good too.
Depends also whether your area is "découplé" or not, i.e. independent of telecom. In that case you no longer have to have telecom, and have unlimited ADSL, telephone and TV from the provider. A provider called "Free" even offers freedom from telecom by renting the telephone line from telecom and including that in the nonetheless cheap offer. We also have regular HD broadcasts, but in what quality I am not sure. Personally I get the French programmes via the ordinary antenna (technique called TNT = television numérique terreste) and all the German programmes with Eurosport from satelite (Astra) as I also speak German.