Field Order -- Frame based, LFF, UFF?

woodchuck · Post by **woodchuck** » Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:20 pm

I believe someone posted a simple explanation of frame based, lower field first, upper field first but I can't seem to find it. Could someone explain these terms and which to use in various situations?

I have been using Frame Based for photos but I'm not sure what is best for DVD's when I have video and photos.

Thanks for any suggestions.

Black Lab · Post by **Black Lab** » Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:31 pm

For the detailed definition read here: http://www.dvmp.co.uk/digital-video.htm

For video you should use whatever the field order is for your source video. Mini-DV is Lower Field First, DVD cams use Upper Field First.

sjj1805 · Post by **sjj1805** » Fri Oct 30, 2009 2:03 am

A common misconception is that Field Order is determined according to the final output - such as I am going to put this on a DVD, or I am going to put this on the internet.
That is wrong, Field order is determined by the source of the video.
With a few exceptions the general rule is that stuff from a digital source is lower field first, stuff from an analogue source is upper field first, Stuff from a scanner or drawn with a graphics program are frame based.

Many High Definition camcorders record in a high bit rate MPEG2 or MPEG4 and these are often upper field first.

Xyzzy2 · Post by **Xyzzy2** » Fri Oct 30, 2009 9:09 am

sjj1805 wrote: With a few exceptions the general rule is that stuff from a digital source is lower field first, stuff from an analogue source is upper field first.

Are you sure not the other way round, or at least not always? My DV is LFF and AVCHD is UFF.

Trevor Andrew · Post by **Trevor Andrew** » Fri Oct 30, 2009 10:34 am

Xyzzy2 wrote:
sjj1805 wrote: With a few exceptions the general rule is that stuff from a digital source is lower field first, stuff from an analogue source is upper field first.
Are you sure not the other way round, or at least not always? My DV is LFF and AVCHD is UFF.

Yes that is correct.

Digital source such as Dv-Avi uses Lower Field (Mini DV type camcorder Hi8 etc)

Analogue capture generally uses Upper Field (VHS-TV tuner Etc)

Newer types of video, High Definition although digital uses Upper Field or frame based

The general rule was clear until HD was developed.

sjj1805 · Post by **sjj1805** » Fri Oct 30, 2009 12:50 pm

Xyzzy2 wrote:Are you sure not the other way round, or at least not always? My DV is LFF and AVCHD is UFF.

Read it again - you have repeated what I said.

woodchuck · Post by **woodchuck** » Fri Oct 30, 2009 1:36 pm

Thanks, Jeff, for pointing me to the excellent article on DV and field order. It gives me a better understanding of the differences in LFF and UFF.

Also, thanks to Steve and the other posters for summarizing what field order to use based on the source. Since I'm not into HD (yet), I've been using LFF with good success. My Sony DV camcorder outputs DVI and most of the other clips I use are AVI. I have been receiving a free motion loop weekly from motionloops.com for over 2 years and they are AVI.

Thanks again, you are the best!

Joyce

Xyzzy2 · Post by **Xyzzy2** » Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:35 pm

sjj1805 wrote:
Xyzzy2 wrote:Are you sure not the other way round, or at least not always? My DV is LFF and AVCHD is UFF.
Read it again - you have repeated what I said.

AVCHD is analogue?

Black Lab · Post by **Black Lab** » Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:43 pm

sjj1805 wrote:Many High Definition camcorders record in a high bit rate MPEG2 or MPEG4 and these are often upper field first.

AVCHD is MPEG4.

Trevor Andrew · Post by **Trevor Andrew** » Fri Oct 30, 2009 7:08 pm

Xyzzy2 wrote:
sjj1805 wrote:
Xyzzy2 wrote:Are you sure not the other way round, or at least not always? My DV is LFF and AVCHD is UFF.
Read it again - you have repeated what I said.
AVCHD is analogue?

No
AVCHD is digital

Go back a few years, before HD High Deffinition.

We had Digital and Analogue
Digital Lower Field, Analogue Upper Field

Now introduce HD (High Definition----AVCHD)
This uses Upper Field
Although some HD may use Frame Based.

The old digital Dv-Avi uses Lower
the new digital HD uses Upper

Confused now

sjj1805 · Post by **sjj1805** » Sat Oct 31, 2009 4:06 pm

sjj1805 wrote: With a few exceptions the general rule is that stuff from a digital source is lower field first, stuff from an analogue source is upper field first, Stuff from a scanner or drawn with a graphics program are frame based.

Many High Definition camcorders record in a high bit rate MPEG2 or MPEG4 and these are often upper field first.

erdna · Post by **erdna** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 3:41 pm

sjj1805 wrote:A common misconception is that Field Order is determined according to the final output - such as I am going to put this on a DVD, or I am going to put this on the internet.
That is wrong, Field order is determined by the source of the video.
With a few exceptions the general rule is that stuff from a digital source is lower field first, stuff from an analogue source is upper field first, Stuff from a scanner or drawn with a graphics program are frame based.

Many High Definition camcorders record in a high bit rate MPEG2 or MPEG4 and these are often upper field first.

Does this also mean, that whatever is being set e.g. in the burning module (LFF,UFF) it is being overruled by the source field order?

Black Lab · Post by **Black Lab** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 3:52 pm

NO. The source doesn't override anything. You have to SET IT to whatever the source is.

erdna · Post by **erdna** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:31 pm

To me, this is not what sjj1805 wrote...moreover on june 10 2009 I posted in this forum that I experienced NO difference in image quality when burning a DVD out of AVCHD 1080i footage, whatever the field order setting in the burning module was. I experienced exactly the same results today when making a DVD with UFF and another with LFF setting. The DVD contained fast motion , but no difference on PC display, no difference on dvd player-analog monitor, no difference on a DVD player-50" plasma display.

Trevor Andrew · Post by **Trevor Andrew** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:32 am

Hi

Although you indicate 1080i.
Was the original video actually Upper Field (Interlaced) or Frame based. (Progressive)

You would be able to render progressive to interlaced using any field order, upper or lower with the same results.

If it works for you then that¡¦s good, I do not use HD so cannot check quality of these types of videos.
But if you do have quality problems then the first check would be the field orders.