DVD Import Project Settings and Smart Render

HCN3 · Post by **HCN3** » Thu Oct 08, 2009 2:55 am

I have transferred a number of recorded TV shows from my DVR to DVD using a Panasonic DVD Recorder. Now, I want to bring those into VS x2 and remove the commercials and then reburn the DVD.

When I import the DVD and insert the file into the timeline following the workflow in the sticky post, VS does change my project settings to match the MPEG parameters exactly. However, once I remove the commericals and go to save the file, it insists on rendering the whole file again and the resulting file is actually larger than the file I started with.

I was under the assumption that if my project settings matched exactly with the output format when doing the Share -> Video File settings that it would only need to render the areas where I cut out the commercials and give me a file that would still fit on a DVD.

The MPEG properties when bringing the video into VS are:
NTSC drop frame (29.97 fps)
MPEG files
24 bits, 720 x 480, 29.97 fps
Upper Field First
(DVD-NTSC), 4:3
Video data rate: Variable (Max. 6164 kbps)
Audio data rate: 256 kbps
Dolby Digital Audio, 48 KHz, 2/0(L,R)

The file comes off of a single Layer DVD+RW disk that was finalized from the Panasonic unit. Am I stuck actually having to render the FULL file?

Thanks!

Post by **Ken Berry** » Thu Oct 08, 2009 3:55 am

No, those are stock standard mpeg-2 properties so should not require recoding.

But the real question is what you choose after Share > Create Video File. If you choose 'DVD', then the default properties might by default use a bitrate of 8000 kbps which would give you the larger file size.

My own preference would be either to use Share > Create Video File > Same as Project Properties, as long as you are absolutely sure the Project Properties are exactly the same as those video properties you list. Or better, Share > Create Video File > Same as First Video Clip, since then it will definitely match those properties.

Then, if you ensure the SmartRender box is ticked, only the areas around the spots where you cut out the commercials will be re-rendered.

HCN3 · Post by **HCN3** » Thu Oct 08, 2009 7:21 am

I have tried "Same as project settings", "Same as First Clip" and "Custom" and manually set all of the parameters with the same results. It insists on re-encoding the whole file.

I even tried the same process on the original file without doing any of the multitrim operations and it still wishes to re-encode the file.

Could it be a VOB vs. MPEG issue? I am grasping. I have looked at the file with a bitrate viewer and see that the properties listed on the file is not exactly the maximum bitrate within the file but when I tried one of the "mpeg repair" utilities and set it to 8000 mpbs it still rendered the whole file.

It is very strange and I was hoping that the forum could provide some other ideas I could try. The temp file created by the import is 4.3GB at the higher bitrate unless something is not identifying the bitrate correctly that smart render is seeing during the process.

Trevor Andrew · Post by **Trevor Andrew** » Thu Oct 08, 2009 10:46 am

Hi
Although you gave the properties of the original video file, you do not say how large the file is in Gb.
The length in minutes would also be useful.
What are the properties of the new video file? I realise they should be the same, but are they?

Using a bit rate of 6000kbps will allow for (approx) 90 minutes to a single layer disc.

All in all if you reduce the length and re-code / render to the same properties the file should be smaller.

Please check the length of the project prior to doing Share Create Video File. Is it shorter?

In the Share Create Video File window you can see/view the properties that the render will use.
Are they what you expect.?

HCN3 · Post by **HCN3** » Thu Oct 08, 2009 3:54 pm

When I import the file from the DVD and insert it into the timeline, it asks me to change the project properties to the file settings for Smart Render and provide the following settings:

MPEG files
24 bits, 720 x 480, 29.97 fps
Upper Field First
(DVD-NTSC), 4:3
Video data rate: Variable (Max. 6164 kbps)
Audio data rate: 256 kbps
Dolby Digital Audio, 48 KHz, 2/0(L,R)

The original file is 3 hours and is 4,495,778 KB.

After removing the commercials, the length of the video is about 2 hrs and 15 minutes.

But for this test, I inserted the video into the timeline, directly went to share, click on Create Video file, chose Same as project settings which provided a save as box with the following information in it:

NTSC drop frame (29.97 fps)
MPEG files
24 bits, 720 x 480, 29.97 fps
Upper Field First
(DVD-NTSC), 4:3
Video data rate: Variable (Max. 6164 kbps)
Audio data rate: 256 kbps
Dolby Digital Audio, 48 KHz, 2/0(L,R)

I click on the Options box to make sure that Perform Smart Render and Perform non-square pixel rendering are both checked and click OK.

It begins to render the file and I can see it playing the video in the playback window slowly so it does not appear to be Smart Rendering anything.

My next question would be if I need to adjust the "quality" slider bar. I remember the jchunter workflow mentioning that after inserting the video in the timeline to change the quality slider to 100% and when saving the file to do the same. I have tried that as well.

I can tell you that when I save the edited file, the file is reported as 2 hrs 15 minutes or so and has a size of 5,073,498 KB which is the EDITED file.

It seems very strange that I am having such a hard time with this because I have done it in the past without issues.

Trevor Andrew · Post by **Trevor Andrew** » Thu Oct 08, 2009 7:48 pm

HCN3 wrote:When I import the file from the DVD and insert it into the timeline, it asks me to change the project properties to the file settings for Smart Render and provide the following settings:

MPEG files
24 bits, 720 x 480, 29.97 fps
Upper Field First
(DVD-NTSC), 4:3
Video data rate: Variable (Max. 6164 kbps)
Audio data rate: 256 kbps
Dolby Digital Audio, 48 KHz, 2/0(L,R)

The original file is 3 hours and is 4,495,778 KB.

That just doesn¡¦t add up, unfortunately I don¡¦t know why!

Using a bit rate of 6000:-
For 90 minutes the file size should be approx 4.3 GB
For 3 hours, 180 minutes the file size should double to 8.3 GB.

In theory your bit rate seems to be double what it should be. (strange)

Your final new video file at 5 GB for 2 hr 15 minutes seems more realistic at 6000 variable bit rate.

If you wish to fit the video to DVD then the bit rate would have to be about 3500.
This would probably produce a file below 4.3 Gb for 2 hrs 15 mins. And fit to disc.
A bit rate calculator will help in assessing the rate more accurately.

I do not know the quality at 3000 kbps would be. , I usually use 6000 for a max 90 minutes of video.

HCN3 · Post by **HCN3** » Thu Oct 08, 2009 8:17 pm

Well... now you know why I stopped lurking, signed up and asked for help. That is exactly why I am puzzled as to what is happening. When I run the file through the Bitrate Viewer, it reports a Peak of 6684 and an average of 3079 for a 4.288GB file. So even VS isn't reporting the peak that Bitrate Viewer sees.

Now, I have seen the tools to "fix" MPEG files which will insert any bitrate I basically need into the file. Do you think that changing this to 6000 would maintain my file size?

I guess the main question is that knowing what the standard encoder rates are, how does the Panasonic DVD recorder get away with fitting a higher encoding rate with a smaller file and maintain MPEG compatibility? Is this possible then a limitation of the VS MPEG encoder?

I imported another recording from the Panasonic (shorter file) and it is reporting a full 8000 kbps for a video that runs 1 hr and 45 mins on a 4.288GB file as well. The Bitrate viewer actually shows a 8626 kbps peak rate and an average of 5178 on that one.

If it helps, when I perform the transfer to the DVD Recorder I choose the "Flexible Recording" option which according to my understanding will adjust the encoder to fit the specified time to the full DVD size to give you the best quality for the recording on a single disk.

I would settle for having to deal with the re-encoding part if I knew that my resulting file would still fit on a single layer DVD but the fact that not only do I wait 3-4 hours for rendering that should not have to occur but then end up with a file that doesn't fit on a single layer disk is frustrating to say the least.

Thank you for your ideas. Keep them coming if you have any.

Trevor Andrew · Post by **Trevor Andrew** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 7:39 pm

Hi

Ok I have managed to replicate your video file symptoms.

I have a LG recorder, I saved a 54 minute program to DVD, then imported to VS 10 with the following settings:-

MPEG files
24 bits, 720 x 576, 25 fps
Upper Field First
(DVD-PAL), 4:3
Video data rate: Variable (Max. 9200 kbps)
Audio data rate: 256 kbps
Dolby Digital Audio, 48 KHz, 2/0(L,R)

The actual file size from windows explorer showed 2.0 Gb, as near as. (seems a little low to me )

So I import to VS and ¡¥share create video file¡¦ same as first video¡¦.
The resultant file being 3 Gb (well just under) Now that doesn¡¦t make sense.

As an aside
One thing that seems strange is that the library thumbnails display differently, the original like 4:3 and the new rendered file as 16:9. In fact they seem to be in reverse.

Have a look at the aspect ratio of your rendered files

I agree-------something strange going on here??????????????????????

HCN3 · Post by **HCN3** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 8:38 pm

I didn't think about that. I assumed that since I was using the analog outputs from the DirecTV receiver to the recorder, the signal would be 4:3 but maybe not. I agree though, the imported video from the disk is considered 4:3 according to the file properties on all of them although the picture is 16:9 on the TV.

Now I need to think about if it is stretched or actually recorded as 16:9.

I am using the s-video input into the recorder so I do not know if that autoscales it to 4:3 or if it maintains the 16:9 output to the recorder.

I made the assumption that it rescaled it to 4:3 since that is what the file properties are showing in the library window.

If you find something interesting on your side... please let me know. I will see what I can do from my side.

HCN3 · Post by **HCN3** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 11:55 pm

Well, for me it seems like it doesn't matter if I choose 16:9 or 4:3. The DVD file imports off of the disk as a 4:3 property file. In 16x9 mode, I get the sidebars on the video. So, to me at least, it seems like the video when burned to the disk is 4:3 coming from the svideo input which, to me, makes sense as it is a legacy input port.

Shim · Post by **Shim** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 1:22 am

Don`t think Panasonic has ever fully supported plus-media discs (dvd+R/RW).

AFAIK Panasonic dvd recorders will only support +R/RW discs at an aspect ratio of 4:3 even if the original source material is 16:9.

A fully compatible/supported (16:9/4:3) disc format would be dvd-Ram with Panasonic recorders; which I find work well with VS provided you have optical drives which also support the media.

An advantage for me with dvd-ram is that the discs remain open, that is to say the discs are not finalised and are fully compatible with VS X2.

HCN3 · Post by **HCN3** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 3:35 pm

And I am fine or at least expected it to be reduced to 4:3 since I can only provide the analog input into the unit from the DirecTV receiver.

We are still trying to figure out how the MPEG files coming off of the DVD are showing encoding rates that may not be consistent with what is expected and how that is interacting with VS Smart Render.

I know that if it is going to do a full re-encode of the file anyway, I can just reduce the bitrate to the "correct" rate to get it to fit the disc using the MPEG Optimizer but since the file already fit on a disc with the higher rate and was DVD-compatible, that Smart Render would just let me cut the commercials out and render the cuts instead of the whole file.

Shim · Post by **Shim** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 7:05 pm

Analogue (Svideo/Composite/Scart) 16:9 transfers to supported disc formats will remain at 16:9 aspect ratios.

No doubt peeps shall try and replicate using your info.

Mirror image = Not sure I have ever experienced such through any automated conversion process?

HCN3 · Post by **HCN3** » Sun Oct 11, 2009 2:21 am

Well, I did verify (by reading the manual) that the only 16:9 media supported by the Panasonic is DVD-RAM. OK, so now I know that.

But, that means that my 4:3 recordings should still be able to be brought into VS and edited, I would hope, without having to re-encode the whole file if I match the imported video settings. I am going to try some other ideas to see if it will help with the Smart Render process.

I may also try Nero 7 because I still have that installed on my system as well to see if it can figure out how to handle the file without re-encoding.

I agree with Trevor, this is very strange, and I am very puzzled as to why the standard workflow doesn't seem to work with these files.

Trevor Andrew · Post by **Trevor Andrew** » Sun Oct 11, 2009 9:30 am

Hi

Just to recap on my 4:3 v 16:9 findings.

Video recorded to DVD using LG recorder, assume in 16:9 --- 54 minutes.
Imported to VS, Library shows video as 16:9
VS library shows size as 2.029.338Kb

Insert to timeline, VS recognises clip and changes properties to match,
except that the aspect ratio has been changed to 4:3. Didn¡¦t notice at first.

I rendered the project using same as first clip resultant file size 2.932.874Kb, much larger??? now I notice the aspect ratio.
Edited the project properties back to 16:9 and render again, file size now 2.026,334Kb

Now I don¡¦t know why VS gets confused with the aspect ratio, nor why the file sizes change so drastically.

So rendering as 16:9 reduced my file size similar to original, not exactly the same as I would have expected.

With these problems occurring I would not think that smart render has any effect and that the video file is being rendered fully.