VS Crashing

[MIKEL]

When running in Project mode VS crashes and when in Clip mode sometimes it staggers along and it is not the best feeling.
I have a Q6600 quad core processor on an Assus P5K board and have 4 GB of memory. The thing is I am running Vista 32 bit office.
I would have thought I was home free. Seemingly not.
I would really appreciate some advice here. I am editing m2ts files even though the file name says XYZ.VSP, DVD PAL 720*576 - Stereo.

One last thing if I cannot yet save on blueray what is the best format to put on a DVD (or CD) I sometimes get a real bad DVD (shudders and coughs a lot).

Thanks for any help.
Mike

[sjj1805]

Thank you for completing your profile.
However you need to give us more details regarding the source of your files and how they got into your computer. We have written a guide here.

DVD Video Discs comprise of MPEG2 files and so you would need to render to that particular format so that the necessary VOB files can be created.

The file extension VSP stands for VideoStudio Project. It is not a video file but it is a list of instructions. Please view:
What is a project file?

[Ken Berry]

Mikel -- your m2ts files obviously come from an AVCHD camera. As you may understand, that is the most demanding video format currently on the market, and I am afraid my Quad 6600 also shudders a bit when it plays them in project mode in VS. However, it normally plays them just fine in a software player like PowerDVD or WinDVD...

If you want to store them on DVD, I am assuming that you are talking just about an archive disk... In that case, you would not use VS2, but just any burning program (like Nero or Roxio or even Window's own burning process) and setting it to Data Disc.

I even edit high def video and burn it as a data file to a DVD, and can play it back in something like the PlayStation 3 which is a BluRay rated player and can see video files on a data disc as long as they are in a folder labelled 'VIDEO'.

Or you can burn them to what is called an AVCHD hybrid disc, which is AVCHD burned as AVCHD in a BluRay BDMV folder but on a standard DVD, not a BluRay disc. VS even allows you to make a menu for such discs. I use the highest quality settings available for those discs (1920 x 1080, 18 Mbps) and the quality is excellent. But that usually only allows me to burn about 20 minutes worth of video to a 4.3GB DVD. You can fit more by lowering the bitrate, but that of course lowers to quality.

Such hybrid discs can only be played, however, on BluRay rated players (including the PS3) which are rated to play such discs. Not all BluRay players can...

[MIKEL]

Thanks Ken that is helpful and I appreciate the detail of the explanation.
I forgot to mention that in order to learn about the new video world I joined a video group and they submit their files to the communal tv station. I need to give them a DVD in a format compatible to what they use when using the standard video format given on a mini-DV tape. I actually made a few DVDs and they played fine but I forgot what format I used. I now make the format as part of the file name. Maybe it was PAL DVD 16:9? I made a disk for "them" and it was terrible as it also shuddered.

You'll have to forgive the way I word questions as I have a lot to learn in this very interesting world of video and sound.

What I am asking is, when I have edited the video I need to play it back in project mode and the timeline moves ok but the VS player stops/dies waiting for someone to respond. You say that I should make a file to play them on PowerDVD or WinDVD - what file format should I use to keep it in HD format?
The book or help doesn't explain the options under Share\Create Video FIle do you have a suggestion of a book or an Internet link? That would really help. Maybe if you told me what you do that would be good enough for me for a while.

For backup I use a large disk but I'll start using DVD's until I get a blueray burner for the PC and the area next to the main tv in the house that is also compatible to playing hybrid files as well. A PS seeme like a good idea the grand kids will be happy (they have a wii at home).

Would it help if I reloaded with XP instead of Vista office? Shuddering is OK next to dying on me or maybe I didn't wait long enough for the system to respond.

Have you ever thought of giving a seminar on the Internet for people like me. Using the editor as a basic user is fine but you really need a lecture or a book on tips and tricks and above ALL a work-flow discussion on how to keep the files in some semblance of order. How to build your folder tree - I find every week I have a better idea but it is sometimes difficult to always restructure the files without having a problem rebuilding things already half edited.

Please tell me you have studied video for 120 years and make me feel better. Maybe you should make a new version of the book that seems very old and not really any good most of the time.

Thanks for being there you are really well appreciated.

Mike

[MIKEL]

Steve hi,
You are quite correct and I also need to do a walkabout before sending a post to clear my head so I can see the big picture.

I am using VS X2 pro and I was worried if the real problem was Vista. It takes a day to move over to XP apart from the fact I would need a new licence, all of them are taken. I use PAL like you in the UK and Ken in DU.

I use the same Intel processor Ken does and all the rest is in my profile.
Assus P5 KC P35 board, 4GM of memory on a 32 bit Vista system.
GEForce 8500GT 1024MB PCIE
My problem is I don't know what I am doing as far as formats are concerened and would welcome a source /s that I could use to educate myself. I also need to get some hardware for the PC and for the lounge/sitting room so I can play the results on the TV. I have a 16:9 TV but is this the format I should give to people that have no idea what to answer when I ask them. A Webinar would be good.

Glad to hear your weather is fine.
Mike

[Trevor Andrew]

Hi Mikel

When you created the DVD for the TV Station, you would render your project to an mpeg 2 file.
(Share Create Video File)
If you used the standard template Pal DVD 16:9 then you probably used Lower Field as the field order.

As far as I know your source files use Upper Field first. You should use this order when you create your video file.
Change the field order could result in your file being as you say ¡§ terrible as it also shuddered¡¨.

You mention creating a video from Mini DV, this would use Lower Field, using the default template would be ok.

You have two options:-
1 / Use the Custom option to manually select the properties.
2/ Use Make Movie Manager to create your own template.

As a guide I would use these settings:-

MPEG files
24 bits, 720 x 576, 25 fps
Upper Field First (should match the properties of your m2ts files)
(DVD-PAL), 16:9
Video data rate: 8000 kbps
Audio data rate: 256 kbps
Dolby Digital Audio, 48 KHz, 2/0(L,R)

[MIKEL]

It may not look like it but I am getting there.
I managed to complete the edit it is just difficult as VS crashes or dies when running in project mode. So, to see the results I have to make a file and as soon as it has written the file to disk it plays back the project on VS sort of fine.
Here are the silly questions.
How do I get VS to run in project mode so I don't have to render endlessly and screw up the quality?

When playing back the file on the pc using a video player I get judder (artifacts or aliasing maybe - is that what it is called?) when zooming or panning, why? How do I fix it? Can you guys make gold out of lead yet?

Can I plonk this file onto a CD or DVD and play it on the sterio system?

When writing a 2 minute clip on a CD I select VCD and use the defaults?

If I render for 4:3 is that top first as well? From what you said yes.

Yes I am having fun just took time working out how the editor works. Now I just need to get the formats right so I can give this lady her CD/DVD and sigh with relief. Had to get my haircut short.

Have to quit now the DVD reader quit - so I'll have to change it tomorrow.
Thanks again.
Mike

[sjj1805]

It may not look like it but I am getting there.
I managed to complete the edit it is just difficult as VS crashes or dies when running in project mode. So, to see the results I have to make a file and as soon as it has written the file to disk it plays back the project on VS sort of fine.

Don't confuse the terms project with a Video File. A video file is something that you can play on your computer with Windows Media Player or similar software.

Here are the silly questions.
How do I get VS to run in project mode so I don't have to render endlessly and screw up the quality?

You don't. You place your video on the time line and edit it. If your Video is made up of various clips (segments) you can either preview the entire video (Project mode) or just the clip (segment) you are currently working on (Clip Mode). When you have completed all of your editing you then render (create) a new video from the [Share] tab [Create Video]. It is this newly rendered video that you then use in the DVD Authoring stage.

When playing back the file on the pc using a video player I get judder (artefacts or aliasing maybe - is that what it is called?) when zooming or panning, why? How do I fix it? Can you guys make gold out of lead yet?

This is normally due to having the Field Order the wrong way round.
There is a common misconception that the field order is determined by the intended viewing medium such as "This is to be viewed on a TV so it's upper field first. That is not so, your field order is determined by the source of the original material, such as a DV / Digital 8 camcorder will record in Lower Field First, most TV cards record in Upper Field First.
Scanned images and photographs from your digital camera are frame based. Get the Field order the wrong way round and moving uprights (such as when you pan from left to right and there are lampposts and telegraph poles) will appear jerky.

Can I plonk this file onto a CD or DVD and play it on the sterio system?
You cannot play a VIDEO on a stereo. What you can do is go to the [Share] tab and create an audio file then treat that in the same way as any songs/music you might have acquired and perhaps create an Audio CD with Windows Media Player.

When writing a 2 minute clip on a CD I select VCD and use the defaults?
The VCD / SVCD formats were the fore runners of the modern day DVD where methods were devised to place low quality videos onto a standard CD. You can get 60-74 minutes worth of VHS quality video on a standard CD, some DVD players will play them but not all.

If I render for 4:3 is that top first as well? From what you said yes.
See my previous answer about field order.

Yes I am having fun just took time working out how the editor works. Now I just need to get the formats right so I can give this lady her CD/DVD and sigh with relief. Had to get my haircut short.
Please view:
From Camera to DVD with VideoStudio

Have to quit now the DVD reader quit - so I'll have to change it tomorrow.
Thanks again.
Mike

[MIKEL]

I read all that and made the file exactly as you told me but the slight judder remains when I make a file and play it in a video viewer.
Why does VS crash in project mode? It it means anything I am using VS X2 pro with the patch. Maybe I have a problem with the proxy files if it is enabled? How do I check that the proxy option is activated?

I made a DVD of a prvious edit and it works fine but I can't remember what I did. The file just says "XYZ 1080i for HDV"
Since then the files have been bad.

The problem is you guys keep saying render as little as possible.
Mike

[MIKEL]

Sorry but I forgot to add the following:

I opened the last file I made of the project when I made a good DVD (I made a file during the process) and I notice that lower field is first and then I had not known it was rhe interlace lines and had not read your reply or that article by John C Lee where hard disks are upper field first as against DVtapes being lower field first.

When making a file I see that in the "ggod" project the checkbox "DO not convert compliant MPEG files" is cleared (unchecked) and the one I am working on is selected (checked) what does this do for us?
Then I had 16:9 selected and NOT 4:3.

I assume that I make my file or DVD with the clips in the timeline-can't see it any other way yet one post says this

Recommended Procedure for Success with Video Studio
The following is all about problem avoidance - see the Tutorial Directory (above) for detailed "how-to" information.

NEW USERS: The following procedure/work flow is recommended when using VIDEO STUDIO because it has had the most success at producing good quality DVDs. In particular, it avoids triggering serious bugs, so please follow the process carefully.

The most important messages in this procedure are:
(1) Always Create a Video File of your entire project before attempting to burn a DVD, [why]

(2) Never try to burn a DVD with anything in the EDIT Timeline display,
What does that mean?

(3) Never try to burn a DVD using SHARE/Add Project button.
OK?

(4) Make certain that your BURN properties exactly match your DVD-Compliant VIDEO FILE properties.
OK I understand what you told me to do and that is what I did. What about the filters for anti aliassing?

Is this correct? I must make a new project before I make a disk when using X2 pro?
Burn DVD Phase
Caution: Never try to create a DVD with anything in the timeline. Do not use the SHARE/Create Disk/Add Project control option.

1. Select NEW project.
2. TBD
3. Select SHARE/Create Disc
4. Press ADD VIDEO button. Navigate to select your Mpeg2 video file. It will appear in the lower display.
5. Click the little Gear-Shaped icon on the lower left, second to the right to set the properties for the DVD burn.
Burn property setup is the same as shown above for Creating Video files.
6. Press "Change Mpeg Settings", then press "Customize," then the "Compression" tab.
7. Media Type should already be selected. Push the quality slider to 100%.
8. Set all burn properties to exactly match the properties of your Project Video File.

[Ken Berry]

Straight out of your camera, your video is Upper Field First mpeg-4 AVCHD 1920 x 1080. As I already said, this is the most demanding format currently available and the most difficult to edit and even play back smoothly.

I am travelling at the moment and don't VS loaded on the computer I am currently using. However, from memory, you check whether SmartProxy is loaded or not by either looking at the setting in the Tools dropdown menu or hover the mouse over the icons roughly in the centre of screen above the timeline. One will show up as SmartProxy, and the icon toggles on or off. A SmartProxy file will be created if you want, and it will be standard definition mpeg-2. That is easy to edit and should play back smoothly in Project mode. When you are satisfied that your editing is done, you apply the Proxy edits to the original AVCHD.

To burn to a standard definition DVD, the AVCHD has to be down-converted to standard definition mpeg-2, but it must be Upper Field First as per the original, and you would use a bitrate of around 7500 - 8000 kbps if your project is around an hour long or less. If more, then you reduce the bitrate accordingly (6000 kbps will give you 90 minutes on a single layer 4.3 GB DVD). The frame size will be 720 x 576 standard def PAL (480 NTSC) and you can use the same audio format as the original AVCHD.

As Steve has said, burning to a CD in VCD format will create a low quality mpeg-1 video which frankly, going from AVCHD highest quality high def video to the lowest quality format possible on a disc is just plain a waste of time!

So try the SmartProxy route and see if that makes a difference. If it does not, then in File > Preferences, find on the General tab the command for Playback mode (can't remember the exact name). It will show by default 'Instant Playback'. Change that to High Quality Playback (or whatever). Then when you try to play back your AVCHD in Project mode, it will in effect render a temporary version of the project and play that back. But that will take quite some time and probably frustrate you further! Be warned also that when you create SmartProxy files, that also takes some time but it is nevertheless a useless feature.

As for the forgotten workflow you used which sort of worked, it seems to have produced a HDV file. That is sort of fine, and is indeed the format I work in all the time. But then, I have a HDV high definition camera which films in HDV format (which is Upper Field First high def mpeg-2, unlike the mpeg-4 your camera produces). But high def HDV or AVCHD is high def whichever way you look at it. I suspect you somewhere along the line, after editing, chose Share > Create Video File > HDV. That would be one full render and thus one generation of quality loss given the lossy nature of mpeg video generally. But being high definition, any quality loss from the one render would not really be noticeable to the human eye.

If you continue to use that workflow and convert your AVCHD to HDV, but still want to burn to a standard definition disc, then you still use the same workflow you have already used. You put your new HDV file in the timeline of the Editor and then have one of two ways to go about things. The recommended workflow would be then to choose Share > Create Video File > DVD (again, if your project is an hour or less). Here, you need to check the properties it is using and ensure that it is Upper Field First. If not, then choose Share > Create Video File > Custom and set the properties yourself (720 x 576, Upper Field First and bitrate according to the length of the project -- 7500 to 8000 for an hour long project or less, or 6000 for 90 minutes, 4000 for two hours. Audio the same as the original.)

It will then downconvert your new file into another new mpeg-2 file with those properties. Then you close the project and start a new project. Don't both giving it a name, as the objective is just to clear the timeline. Then with an empty timeline, you select Share > Create Disc > DVD and the burning module will open. Choose the Add Media button at the top left and navigate to where your new standard def mpeg-2 is located and add that to the burning timeline. Click on the middle icon of the three down in the bottom left of screen and ensure that the box 'Do not convert complian mpeg files' is ticked. That will ensure that your mpeg-2 will not be further converted during the burning process. Then build your menu and burn to disc.

Good luck!

EDIT: and after I posted the above, I found that your had posted once again. I think my explanation above should answer most of your questions.

However, if you follow my suggested workflow, that 'do not convert' box MUST be ticked.

Also, your video started life as 16:9 and your must maintain that. Why try converting it to 4:3 which is not widescreen?

And though I now think you understand it, you absolutely MUST maintain the same field order throughout. So once Upper Field First, always Upper Field First!!

[MIKEL]

Thanks for the very detailed answer I really appreciate the time you spend answering my basic questions.

Yes I think that should keep me busy for a while. I will also clear that checkbox Do not convert compliant MPEG files whatever that means.

Thanks again to you all.
Mike

[Ken Berry]

NOOOOOOO! You do NOT clear that check box, you make sure it is ticked.

What it means is that your new standard definition mpeg-2 which you produce in the previous step is already DVD compliant. So you don't want to render it again and lose another generation of quality. Leaving that box ticked means that no further rendering takes place as part of the burning process. Quality is preserved and the whole burning process also speeded up.

[MIKEL]

Wow what an embarressing moment.
You can use me as the "before" example.
Thanks for your in the nick of time post.
Mike