Canon SX1 IS .MOV to AVCHD in VideoStudio Pro X2

[RandS]

Hello

I have a question specifically to the file size that I am getting when converting the .MOV files from my Canon SX1 IS camera to AVCHD (burning an AVCHD disc) in VideoStudio Pro X2. I am not having any difficulties importing, rendering, etc. It is strictly a file size issue that has me perplexed.

The Canon SX1 IS records video in H.264, with a .MOV wrapper. The specs on the Canon state that when recording a video in HD (1920x1080), it records at ~5200 kbps (~5.2 MB/s). This is confirmed by the file sizes I get when I record in HD. At ~5.2 MB/s, that equals around a 320 MB file size per minute of recording time. This is what I'm seeing.

So, I import a .MOV file into VideoStudio and render an AVCHD disc. Without exception, I get a resulting rendered file that is 1/4 the size, whether I had a 50 MB, 200 MB, or 2 GB file to start with.

I have the quality set to 100, the video data rate set to max (18000 kbps), and every other thing I can find maxed-out in VideoStudio.

The resulting video doesn't look bad, in fact, it actually looks surprizingly good for coming from a camera. But I can't help but think that I'm losing a lot of information, and even better quality video, in the process.

I know AVCHD is good at compression, but since the .MOV from the Canon is already in H.264, am I getting a double H.264 compression by doing this?

Does anyone know why my files are so much smaller in AVCHD?
What are the best ways to render my .MOV files to an AVCHD disc?

Thanks
Randy Schroder

[Ken Berry]

Hi Randy! And welcome to the forums!!

Can you tell us a little about your workflow when 'importing, rendering'... I assume you are importing as .mov. But are you then just inserting the .mov files into the VS timeline, and then rendering them into a new AVCHD file (Share > Create Video File > AVCHD)? Or are you doing your edits on the .mov originals and then jumping straight to Share > Create Disc > AVCHD?

If the latter, then your project file (and not the videos themselves) appear in the burning timeline, and the conversion takes place during the burning process. And the properties it uses for that will be in the top box when you click the middle of the three icons in the bottom left of the burning screen.

As an experiment, does VS "see" the original files if you change the extension from .mov to, say, .mpg or even .mts (or .m2ts) -- the two latter being the usual extensions for AVCHD?

If so, then I would be doing that to all the .mov clips, then doing my editing, then selecting Share > Create Video File > Same As First Clip. That way you should be getting one single clip of your project using exactly the same properties as your originals. That in turn should produce roughly the same size. Then I would open the burning module (Share > Create Disc > AVCHD) and manually insert that new file in the burning timeline. Then make sure that the box beside 'do not convert compliant mpg files' is ticked. That will ensure that no further conversion -- or compression -- is applied to your new video file.

[RandS]

Hi Ken

Thanks for the nice welcome. It was an adventure.

Hi Randy! And welcome to the forums!!

Can you tell us a little about your workflow when 'importing, rendering'... I assume you are importing as .mov. But are you then just inserting the .mov files into the VS timeline, and then rendering them into a new AVCHD file (Share > Create Video File > AVCHD)? Or are you doing your edits on the .mov originals and then jumping straight to Share > Create Disc > AVCHD?

If the latter, then your project file (and not the videos themselves) appear in the burning timeline, and the conversion takes place during the burning process. And the properties it uses for that will be in the top box when you click the middle of the three icons in the bottom left of the burning screen.

As an experiment, does VS "see" the original files if you change the extension from .mov to, say, .mpg or even .mts (or .m2ts) -- the two latter being the usual extensions for AVCHD?

If so, then I would be doing that to all the .mov clips, then doing my editing, then selecting Share > Create Video File > Same As First Clip. That way you should be getting one single clip of your project using exactly the same properties as your originals. That in turn should produce roughly the same size. Then I would open the burning module (Share > Create Disc > AVCHD) and manually insert that new file in the burning timeline. Then make sure that the box beside 'do not convert compliant mpg files' is ticked. That will ensure that no further conversion -- or compression -- is applied to your new video file.

All of the trials I have made thusfar have been going straight to Share > Create Disc > AVCHD. I have not tried to create a video file first. I just insert a .MOV into the timeline and then go to Share > Create Disc > AVCHD.

BTW, the size that I'm going by is given in the bar that is at the bottom of the burning window. This seems to be confirmed in a couple of discs that I've tried, in that I've taken a 2 GB .MOV and rendered it, and VS says that it's going to be a 500 MB file. Visually looking at the "burned" area on the disc looks very small--not even close to about half of the 4.7 GB DVD--which is should have been for the 2 GB file that I started with.

Here is what the properties that I believe you're talking about look like in my settings. The one thing that has me confused is that is always seems to talk about "MPEG" settings--I never can see anything that refers to AVCHD. Is this the issue?

MPEG files
24 bits, 1920 x 1080, 29.97 fps
Upper Field First
(HDMV-NTSC), 16:9
H.264 Video
Video data rate: Variable (Max. 18000 kbps)
Audio data rate: 448 kbps
Dolby Digital Audio, 48 KHz, 2/0(L,R)

Also, I tried all three of the extensions that you suggested, Ken, and each time when I tried to add the file to the timeline, a dialog box popped-up saying "file contains no data".

Any ideas would be welcome. The only other thing that I can think of is that Quicktime movies have a LOT of overhead, and once that's stripped out, there isn't that much video left--but, to have a 75% overhead seems a little too much to me.

Thanks
Randy

[Ken Berry]

You will be able to get the size of the file(s) actually burned to the AVCHD disc by 'opening' the disc in Computer (or Win Explorer). You will see that there is a BDMV structure on the disc. The video itself is in the STREAM sub-folder. Usually hovering the mouse over the files will tell you the details, including size.

Those properties you give are the default highest quality settings in the burn module. But I suggest you try the other way -- i.e. editing your .mov files, then converting them to AVCHD while still in the Editing module: Share > Create Video File > AVCHD 1920.

Note also that after you produce your AVCHD, you go to File > New Project. Don't worry about giving your new project a name. The objective is just to clear the timeline of your current project.

Once that is done, you select Share > Create Disc > DVD. The burning module will open and it should be empty. Use the Add Media button at the top to insert your new AVCHD file in the burning timeline. Then go to the middle of the three icons in the bottom left of the burning screen. There is a little box beside the words 'Do not convert compliant mpeg files'. Make sure that box is ticked (it usually is by default). That way, your already compliant video file will not be re-encoded and further compressed. Then build your menus and burn.

As for VS always referring to your files as mpegs, that is because that is what they are in real life. AVCHD is high definition mpeg-4 created with the H.264 codec, while HDV is high definition mpeg-2.

[RandS]

Hi Ken

I created a video file straight from the .MOV in the timeline using: Share > Create Video File > AVCHD 1920. I used the max quality and video data rate. After it completed rendering, I still got a file that was the same size as when I burned a disc directly (about 2 MB more, actually, but we're talking 54 MB when rendering to a video file vs 52 MB when rendering straight to disc). As it was already that small, I didn't make a disc, since I don't see it going from 54 MB back up to the 200 MB of the original file size during the disc burn process (or improving in quality).

I thought you might be onto something, Ken, but it looks like something screwy is going on with the .MOV files. It seems like there is a lot of overhead in them.

As I said earlier, the video doesn't look bad--I just thought I might be able to make it better. If no one else has any thoughts, then I guess this is the way I will have to make videos from the camera.

You haven't heard of anyone else using this camera trying to make videos, huh?

Thanks for the help
Randy

[Ken Berry]

Sorry...

I should perhaps add -- though you may not like it -- that even though your camera films in a high definition frame format (1920 x 1080), the bitrate it uses (5200 kbps/5.2 Mbps) is not much better than average to good standard definition video (4000 -- 6000 kbps) but not high quality (7000 -- 8000). The average AVCHD *video* camera these days films in the same frame format, but uses a much higher quality bitrate (15 Mbps -- 18 Mbps) and a handful of higher end ones now use the new maximum for AVCHD of 24 Mbps.

So I would not be getting too excited about the final quality of your video, I am (almost) afraid to say...

[RandS]

You're right, Ken.

We actually started out looking at the Canon HFS100, which records AVCHD at a max bitrate of 24 MB/s. It sounded like a really nice video camera and supposedly took stellar video.

But, it also sounded like it took a long time to render all that video and, since I also wanted a little bit better camera, I thought the SX1 IS was the way to go.

Well, thanks again for the help.

Randy

[Black Lab]

As I said earlier, the video doesn't look bad--I just thought I might be able to make it better. If no one else has any thoughts, then I guess this is the way I will have to make videos from the camera.

Using your camera to take video is kind of like taking your family car to race at the Indy 500. Sure, it can make it around the track, and pretty fast at that, but it's not made to race like the other cars on the track.

[RandS]

Thanks for pointing that out--glad that we got it out in the open that my camera doesn't cut it with the rest of the camcorders. However, the real point of my post was to try and determine why the VideoStudio software doesn't let me get the most out of my camera's files.

[Black Lab]

Ken already pointed out why, and my analogy was only meant to help explain.

even though your camera films in a high definition frame format (1920 x 1080), the bitrate it uses (5200 kbps/5.2 Mbps) is not much better than average to good standard definition video (4000 -- 6000 kbps) but not high quality (7000 -- 8000). The average AVCHD *video* camera these days films in the same frame format, but uses a much higher quality bitrate (15 Mbps -- 18 Mbps) and a handful of higher end ones now use the new maximum for AVCHD of 24 Mbps.

So I would not be getting too excited about the final quality of your video, I am (almost) afraid to say...

Sorry if I offended.

[RandS]

Ken already pointed out why, and my analogy was only meant to help explain.

even though your camera films in a high definition frame format (1920 x 1080), the bitrate it uses (5200 kbps/5.2 Mbps) is not much better than average to good standard definition video (4000 -- 6000 kbps) but not high quality (7000 -- 8000). The average AVCHD *video* camera these days films in the same frame format, but uses a much higher quality bitrate (15 Mbps -- 18 Mbps) and a handful of higher end ones now use the new maximum for AVCHD of 24 Mbps.

So I would not be getting too excited about the final quality of your video, I am (almost) afraid to say...

Sorry if I offended.

Hi Jeff

I had not been back in the forum for a while. Thank you. I was looking for answers and thought you were merely trying to smack-down the Canon as the solution.

BTW, I think I found out my answer now, in case you and/or Ken would like to know. It turns out that the SX1 IS takes the .MOV at 5MB/s, which equates to 40 Mbps (5MB/s x 8 bits/byte). So, even at a rendering of 18 Mbps in VS, there will be a drop in the file size.

Just thought you guys might like to know for future reference.

Thanks again, Jeff, and sorry for the misunderstanding.
Randy