Once more... AVCHD, 720p 30fps

llinke · Post by **llinke** » Thu Jul 09, 2009 12:40 pm

Hi!

I recently bought a Toshiba Camileo H20 cam, which to my needs is quite sufficient. It can record in 1080p and 720p, both with 30fps (29.97fps to be excact). The videos are stored in Quicktime MOV container format, but that's no problem. I recorded some 720p videos, since the H20 has an image stabilizer which only works in 720p, not in 1080p. Also I thought that resolution quite sufficient.

After trying out various NLEs (Pinnacle, Sony Vegas, MAGIX), I decided to go with VS12, since I find the Editor most intuitive to use (though it has some flaws). Now I face the problem like many others do, too, I'm not able to export as AVCHD 720p, though I tried various tricks, remuxed the videos as MP4 or M2TS for editing etc.

But I was not able to reproduce Ken's recommendation to generate an AVCHD 720p template in Template Manager based on a 720p30 M2TS. The "Add" function DOES accept the file, but the resulting template (I did not try to edit it!) strangely always shows MPEG2 720x480 or something like that

I then tried to run a short testclip through Nero Vision (from Nero 9), which CAN export to AVCHD 720p... but it generates a 60fps (59.94fps to be exact) file, thus reencoding the file. Anyway, using THIS videofile I was able to generate a template... but that's not the target format I want!

I think AVCHD (Lite) 720p30 has become a quite accepted "standard", AFAIK it is used by HDTV as well as it's a prefered format i.e. by Vimeo and other HD video sites.

Right now my temporary solution/workaround is to export to AVI using the x264 codec. The audio still needs to be converted to AAC since I was not able to generate AAC audio directly. Finally I just had to demux the H.264 video from the AVI and mux the .264 and .aac file using YAMB to get a valid MP4 file for sharing online. Yet that is NOT a final solution, since my goal is to create an AVCHD disc with menus.

I'm not willing to switch to Pinnacle or Vegas, so I (like many others) hope there will be a patch released soon, which enables VS12 to export to AVCHD 720p30 format. Well... and of course the "blip" bug has to be fixed also, though I did not try wether this happens to me as well.

Are there any new insights, if and when a patch will be available?

Black Lab · Post by **Black Lab** » Thu Jul 09, 2009 1:09 pm

To tell you the truth, I doubt there will be a patch. The reason I say that is because new versions of VideoStudio have been released every year, so that would lend me to think the programmers are busy working on v13 instead of working on a free patch.

If that trend continues will the "patch" be incorporated into the new version? Maybe, maybe not. We've been requesting that they fix the analog pass-thru function, but 2 versions have come and gone without that being addressed.

If I were you I would spend my time looking for software that worked instead of waiting for a fix that might not come.

Trevor Andrew · Post by **Trevor Andrew** » Thu Jul 09, 2009 9:03 pm

Hi

You said that you could not create a template to Kens instructions, and that you didn¡¦t try to edit it. Why not?
I was interested in your original post although I do not work with HD was able to create a template to:-

MPEG files
24 bits, 1440 x 1080, 29.97 fps
Upper Field First
(MPEG-2), 16:9
Video data rate: 25000 kbps
Audio data rate: 384 kbps
MPEG audio layer 2, 48 KHz, Stereo

Is this the type of thing you require or am I on the wrong track?

If so what properties do you want your template to have.?

Post by **Ken Berry** » Thu Jul 09, 2009 11:10 pm

Sorry to have to tell you Trevor, but that template you made is the stock standard HDV template which comes with VS and any other editing package that deals with HDV... Those properties *are* HDV.

As for my instructions, I assume you mean the Add process rather than Create a new one, then you cannot edit it once made. If you try, it reverts to the standard definition default mpeg-2 one...

llinke · Post by **llinke** » Thu Jul 09, 2009 11:46 pm

Yes, Ken, that's exactly what I meant! Open the Template Manager and use "Add" to automatically create a template based on a file I choose. This does not work for 720p 30fps, strangely it does for 720p 60fps -- but that does not help me at all.

BTW: I tried this using my own files remuxed to M2TS as well as 720p30 various sample files I downloaded, so it's not my source files

@trevor: like Key said, your example is MPEG2 and 1080p, not 720p. The "add" method uses a, well let's call it glitch in VS12: there are some templates that you cannot create by editing, since the values needed are greyed out or not available in dropdown-lists. Especially I was not able to choose the "Ulead MPEG-4 vio" encoder used for AVCHD. But when you let VS12 create a template based on a file you feed it, it works... but no way you should try to edit this template.

Trevor Andrew · Post by **Trevor Andrew** » Fri Jul 10, 2009 9:24 am

Hi

Thanks for the correction, a bit interested and just on a learning curve here.
So what are the properties of the video file that¡¦s so difficult to create.
I have a Panasonic TZ5 that produces HD Mov files as below, and have created a template on Make Movie Manager. as:-

QuickTime Movie Files
24 bits, 1280 x 720, 30 fps
Frame-based
Photo - JPEG
None, 8.000 KHz, 8 bits, Mono

llinke · Post by **llinke** » Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:38 am

The AVCHD 720p60 file I was able to "add" in "Make Template Manager" results in:

MPEG files
24 bits, 1280 x 720, 59.94 fps
Frame-based
(HDMV-NTSC), 16:9
H.264 Video
Video data rate: 12000 kbps
Audio data rate: 192 kbps
Dolby Digital Audio, 48 KHz, 2/0(L,R)

Okay, the "Dolby Digital 2/0" should be 5.1, but that's marginal. The problem is the "59.94 fps", this should be "29.97 fps", so my source files wouldn't be re-encoded. As said, when I try to use an AVCHD file with the specs I need (M2TS file created by tsRemuxer from my HD MOV files), this doesn't work, it shows as:

MPEG files
24 bits, 720 x 480, 29.97 fps
Frame-based
(MPEG-2), 4:3
Video data rate: 2000 kbps

BTW: if you try to "edit" the generated 720p60 template, this will destroy the settings, resulting in:

MPEG files
24 bits, 1280 x 720, 59.94 fps
Frame-based
(MPEG-2), 16:9
Video data rate: 9469 kbps
Audio data rate: 128 kbps
MPEG audio layer 2, 44.1 KHz, Joint stereo

Trevor Andrew · Post by **Trevor Andrew** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 8:52 am

Hi

Sorry but I still don¡¦t understand, maybe I am asking the wrong questions.

In your first post you refer to a video file as being in Quicktime Mov container.

The following posts refer to the 1080p video file and its properties.

What I was after was the properties of the 720p video file, before any conversion.
If you were to right click a video and select properties , what are they?

Or have I still got hold of the wrong end of the stick?

llinke · Post by **llinke** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 4:37 pm

I didn't bring up the 1080

OK, in short: my source is 720p 30fps in QT MOV container. I want to create a 720p 30fps AVCHD disc without reencoding most parts (only cross-fades etc). VS offers no matching template, creating one doesn't work, as described above, trying various M2TS files for 720p. VS accepts the MOVs, or remuxed files in MP4 or M2TS container, but that doesn't matter or help at all. Without matching template, there's no way to create a 720p AVCHD (Lite?) disc.

I could create a 720p 60fps template, but this naturally causes reencoding, too, so no advantage.

I hope I could make things more clear.

Post by **Ken Berry** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:09 am

While I appreciate that you want to avoid re-encoding, I in fact do that all the time with both HDV and AVCHD. The quality of the original is so high that a single encode does not -- at least to my eyes -- produce any detectable loss of quality. So all you really lose is the extra time it takes to re-encode. And in point of fact, I have, almost since day one of the AVCHD era, suggested that people NOT use SmartRender with either AVCHD or HDV precisely because of the 'blips' that it seems to introduce into the final product...

Have you actually tried the 720p 60fps route? If so, what was the quality like?

llinke · Post by **llinke** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 11:27 am

Thanks, Ken. Well, my source is just about 4-5 MBit/sec, that's why I want to avoid re-encoding. But thanks for your hint to not use SmartRender!!

Exporting to 720p 60fps works good so far, but I guess I have to choose a higher bitrate to compensate for twice the amount of frames.

Anyway... finally it looks as I'm completely on the wrong track, since even if I had been able to create a proper 720p 30fps AVCHD file, I could use it for vimeo.com etc, but not for my primary goal, an AVCHD disc with menu etc. When using "create disc" there still are only the supported resolutions 720x480, 1440x1080 and 1920x1080.

So I conclude, I'm stuck with 720p 30fps or 60fps, there's no way to create an AVCHD disc in that format -- at least not using the current VS12, right? Furthermore I'm quite disappointed there's no way to create a folder or ISO image but have to write straight to DVD...

One remaining question: What are my choices to create good quality 720p 30fps files for Vimeo? Choosing MPEG-4 does not allow me to use higher (HD) resolutions. HDV only exports using MPEG-2 and VERY high bitrates, too high for uploading.

Right now I export as AVI using the x264, XviD or DivX codec. But since I haven't found an AAC codec, I have to use MP3 audio, which I have to reencode to AAC using MediaCoder later, and finally use YAMB to remux the H.264 video and AAC audio into a proper MP4 container.

...not an easy and proper way

Post by **Ken Berry** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:03 am

Sorry, I know absolutely nothing and nada about uploading files to the internet. I just don't do it, so hopefully someone who does, and does it in HD, can answer you.

As for your primary aim to produce an AVCHD hybrid disc, I produce them all the time but using my HDV video as the original. As you know, HDV has the 1440 x 1080 frame size, but when I convert this to the AVCHD disc, I use the 1920 x 1080 template. The end quality is superb and I certainly can't tell the difference between the video on the AVCHD disc and the original edited HDV played directly (via PS3) on my HDTV. So I guess one other thing you could try would be to convert your 720p project to an AVCHD disc using the 1440 x 1080 template, and see how the quality is. You might even want to bump it up to 1920 and compare that too while you're at it. I would be interested in the results...

And I agree with you about it being a shame you can't produce an ISO or Blu-Ray (BDMV) equivalent of the DVD folder. As I understand it, there are some programs, though not all, which will at least produce an ISO. I think Nero 9 (and 8?) may be one (using Vision Express), though I haven't tried that yet.