AVCHD Problems!

[me]

I recently got a Panasonic ZS3 camera, that takes AVCHD video.

I can playback the .mts files directly from the computer hard drive, and they play fine. So, the problem is not in the original video.

In playback within VS12, the playback is choppy and erratic. But I thought that was just in its own preview, that videos created with it would be fine.

I output to an HD video file, using the "same as first video clip" setting. There should be no problems that way, keeping the video settings of the original, just adding transitions and captions.

The resulting video played very jerky, with the video sped up, going much faster than the audio.

I then output the same project again, this time using the standard 16:9 DVD settings, to have a version I could share on standard DVDs. Surprisingly, the resulting SD .mpg was just as bad, same problem!

What could be causing this problem?


--------

Unrelated and unimportant, but just curious--why does the HD file save as an .mpg, rather than .mp4 or .m4v, certainly more common containers for H.264 video?

[Ken Berry]

It would be helpful if you filled in your System details so that we have some sort of idea of your computer's abilities. As it is, we are in the dark. At the same time, we are talking about AVCHD which is the most demanding of all video formats currently available. You need at least a decent Core 2 Duo to play AVCHD smoothly -- though you say it plays normally on your computer outside of VS, so I am assuming your computer meets the minimum requirements for AVCHD.

Doing even a minimal search of this site will also reveal that just about all owners of AVCHD cameras have a variety of problems editing and playing it using VS11+/11.5+ and 12. But then again, few if any consumer level editing packages -- apart from the software supplied by the camera manufacturers to go with their own camera -- seem to be able to edit it properly. I am not making excuses for Corel or anyone else -- I don't work for them and believe they have had plenty of time to work out fixes. But they haven't.

Another problem, though, is that the AVCHD camera makers don't seem to use a single standard codec for it. They each seem to have their own variations... Panasonic is one of these.

Now the situation has become more complicated by the fact that Panasonic is the first to bring out a still camera such as yours which can film video in AVCHD. The problem is that it is a sub-set of "standard" (!! ) AVCHD called AVCHD Lite. So this is their own proprietary format for those Lumix cameras, and as far as I am aware, it was only introduced into the market in January this year i.e. well after VS12 was produced. In other words, VS12 is unlikely to be able handle this new proprietary format unless and until a patch is produced for it. Unfortunately, we have been waiting for months now for Corel to produce a patch which will fix the many other problems VS12 has in handling "standard" AVCHD... So I wouldn't be holding my breath, if I were you...

That being said, I believe AVCHD Lite uses the 720p format which VS12 in theory can handle. But it will undoubtedly again be a problem of the codec. Did you install the programs (and drivers/codecs) that came on the Installation CD with the camera?

Your attempt to convert to standard definition would have the same problem if VS does not have a codec capable of reading the high def video in the first place.

As for why the HD video saves as mpeg, I cannot say. It may have something to do with AVCHD Lite, but I just don't know enough about it to be able to say definitely. Normally, AVCHD saves as either .mts or .m2ts (I think the mp4 and m4v extensions relate to standard def H.264). But since I am not sure exactly what you mean when you say "why does the HD file save as an .mpg" -- in particular, the word "save". How exactly did you 'save' it? For that matter, how did you capture the video to your computer? Using VS directly? Or the software which came with the camera? Or something else?

[me]

It would be helpful if you filled in your System details so that we have some sort of idea of your computer's abilities. As it is, we are in the dark. At the same time, we are talking about AVCHD which is the most demanding of all video formats currently available. You need at least a decent Core 2 Duo to play AVCHD smoothly -- though you say it plays normally on your computer outside of VS, so I am assuming your computer meets the minimum requirements for AVCHD.

Doing even a minimal search of this site will also reveal that just about all owners of AVCHD cameras have a variety of problems editing and playing it using VS11+/11.5+ and 12. But then again, few if any consumer level editing packages -- apart from the software supplied by the camera manufacturers to go with their own camera -- seem to be able to edit it properly. I am not making excuses for Corel or anyone else -- I don't work for them and believe they have had plenty of time to work out fixes. But they haven't.

Another problem, though, is that the AVCHD camera makers don't seem to use a single standard codec for it. They each seem to have their own variations... Panasonic is one of these.

Now the situation has become more complicated by the fact that Panasonic is the first to bring out a still camera such as yours which can film video in AVCHD. The problem is that it is a sub-set of "standard" (!! ) AVCHD called AVCHD Lite. So this is their own proprietary format for those Lumix cameras, and as far as I am aware, it was only introduced into the market in January this year i.e. well after VS12 was produced. In other words, VS12 is unlikely to be able handle this new proprietary format unless and until a patch is produced for it. Unfortunately, we have been waiting for months now for Corel to produce a patch which will fix the many other problems VS12 has in handling "standard" AVCHD... So I wouldn't be holding my breath, if I were you...

That being said, I believe AVCHD Lite uses the 720p format which VS12 in theory can handle. But it will undoubtedly again be a problem of the codec. Did you install the programs (and drivers/codecs) that came on the Installation CD with the camera?

Your attempt to convert to standard definition would have the same problem if VS does not have a codec capable of reading the high def video in the first place.

As for why the HD video saves as mpeg, I cannot say. It may have something to do with AVCHD Lite, but I just don't know enough about it to be able to say definitely. Normally, AVCHD saves as either .mts or .m2ts (I think the mp4 and m4v extensions relate to standard def H.264). But since I am not sure exactly what you mean when you say "why does the HD file save as an .mpg" -- in particular, the word "save". How exactly did you 'save' it? For that matter, how did you capture the video to your computer? Using VS directly? Or the software which came with the camera? Or something else?

Hi.

Thanks again for your detailed reply.

Yes, the video is AVCHD Lite, which is 720p.

The computer used is dual-core, and as I said can play back the .mts files with VLC, and they look fine.

How did I transfer the video from the camera to the computer? Using the SDHC card in a card reader, simply copied from the card to the computer's HDD.

No, I didn't install the software that came with the camera. It doesn't look very useful. I'd have to find the CD. I see here in the manual it is called PHOTOfunSTUDIO. Mostly to do something with still photos, but is also says that AVCHD movies can be loaded and written to DVD with it. You think that just installing it would load codecs, that might make VS work better with that same video?

Whether VS is able to read the videos, it seems to. It loads up the clips, no error messages, and one sees the video on the preview screen. But it plays back funny, not only in the preview, but in video exported from it.

How did I save the video? For the HD version, I just chose, from Share, Save Video, ..same settings as first video clip. The clip was from a .mts file, direct from the camera. Yet it was saved in .mpg format, although with avc codec, and in high-def. FOr the low-def one, I chose the DVD-Video setting. Both played back funny though.

I discovered one strange thing, tha t could be related. I imported a clip into a different video editor, tmpgenc. It reported the frame rate of the video as almost 120fps, I think 119.88, something like that! That is impossible. And as progressive.

When I right-click on the clip in VS12, i see the frame rate as 59.94.

YEt on saving, I see 29.97.

What's up with the frame rate?

[Ken Berry]

The thing with the frame rates does sound a bit strange -- especially that 119.88 fps one with tmpgenc. As you will probably have realised, that is twice the progessive NTSC frame rate of 59.94 fps. I cannot think why it would double that -- unless it read the original as being an interlaced frame rate and doubled it to give you a progressive rate...

The downward conversion to 29.97 (half of 59.94) is perhaps a little more obvious and that has to do with the other problem i.e. the conversion to mpg instead of .m2ts/.mts. And I think that in turn is linked to your use of Share > Create Video File > Same as First Clip.

First, though, can you right click on the wonky .mpg file you produced. Do this inside Video Studio -- either in the library window or in the timeline. And copy down ALL its properties here please. Then we will know exactly what we are talking about.

At the moment, I have two theories. One is that you are converting the file to HDV 720p, and not AVCHD. That can use the mpg extension. But I am not sure how it would happen, unless by saying 'same as first clip', VS saw 720p, looked through its database, and only found a HDV template which used 720p. That could have screwed things up.

The other possibility relates to the fact that I don't think 'same as first clip' works with high definition video. It certainly does not with my HDV. Instead, you have to actually choose one of the high definition outputs specifically. However, as you may already have found, there is no AVCHD output in VS for 720p -- the only one being HDV, as I already mentioned above. So what I think could be occurring here is that VS gets the command Share > Create Video File > Same as first clip, but cannot actually "see" the high definition properties of the first clip at that point. And so it uses the default project properties which, I think you will find, are standard definition mpeg-2 -- which of course also uses the mpg extension. And standard definition video for a DVD has to be interlaced, so that would account for the interlaced NTSC frame rate of 29.97. That could also account for the low quality result you have been getting -- though it does not explain the strange frame rate business with tmpgenc...

As for whether loading the installation disc might give you the correct codec, it's just a 'maybe'. It depends on whether VS can "see" it and thus use it instead of its own AVCHD codec which, as far as I am aware, does not deal with 720p AVCHD...

One other thing you might want to try to get around that 'same as first clip' business is to make a template using one of your captured original clips. In VS, go to Tools > Make Movie Template Manager. In the dialogue box which appears, click the Add button. In the new dialogue box which appears, give the new template a name (e.g. AVCHD Lite). In the little window above that, which says mysterious 'File path', click on the button to its right which only has '...' on it, and navigate to where one of your original files are stored, and select it. Then click OK to get out of all that and back to the VS main screen. Now when you click on Share > Create Video File, at the very bottom of the drop down menu which appears, there should be a new entry: AVCHD Lite. So next time, when you finish you project, choose that instead of 'Same as first clip'.

(NOTE: do NOT try to change the settings within this new template. That simply causes it to collapse into a standard definition template, and you have to start all over again.)

With the new AVCHD Lite video file you produce, you can down-convert it to standard definition video. Note here that your original video is progressive scan, but a DVD must be interlaced. So it will end up with a frame rate of 29.97 fps. I would use Upper Field First because that is the Field Order used by all interlaced high definition video, both HDV and AVCHD. If you in fact, in your experiment to date, used a default template, I would guess that it uses Lower Field First, which again could account for some of the low quality results your received.

Another possibility is to use Share > Create Video File > AVCHD. This should at least keep it as AVCHD, albeit with a larger frame size. I would choose the 1440 option as it is closer to your original frame size of 1280 x 720, and uses a bitrate of 15 Mbps which I assume is also closer to your original bitrate (12 Mbps?)

Looking forward to hearing back from you!!

[me]

The thing with the frame rates does sound a bit strange -- especially that 119.88 fps one with tmpgenc. As you will probably have realised, that is twice the progessive NTSC frame rate of 59.94 fps. I cannot think why it would double that -- unless it read the original as being an interlaced frame rate and doubled it to give you a progressive rate...

The downward conversion to 29.97 (half of 59.94) is perhaps a little more obvious and that has to do with the other problem i.e. the conversion to mpg instead of .m2ts/.mts. And I think that in turn is linked to your use of Share > Create Video File > Same as First Clip.

First, though, can you right click on the wonky .mpg file you produced. Do this inside Video Studio -- either in the library window or in the timeline. And copy down ALL its properties here please. Then we will know exactly what we are talking about.

At the moment, I have two theories. One is that you are converting the file to HDV 720p, and not AVCHD. That can use the mpg extension. But I am not sure how it would happen, unless by saying 'same as first clip', VS saw 720p, looked through its database, and only found a HDV template which used 720p. That could have screwed things up.

The other possibility relates to the fact that I don't think 'same as first clip' works with high definition video. It certainly does not with my HDV. Instead, you have to actually choose one of the high definition outputs specifically. However, as you may already have found, there is no AVCHD output in VS for 720p -- the only one being HDV, as I already mentioned above. So what I think could be occurring here is that VS gets the command Share > Create Video File > Same as first clip, but cannot actually "see" the high definition properties of the first clip at that point. And so it uses the default project properties which, I think you will find, are standard definition mpeg-2 -- which of course also uses the mpg extension. And standard definition video for a DVD has to be interlaced, so that would account for the interlaced NTSC frame rate of 29.97. That could also account for the low quality result you have been getting -- though it does not explain the strange frame rate business with tmpgenc...

As for whether loading the installation disc might give you the correct codec, it's just a 'maybe'. It depends on whether VS can "see" it and thus use it instead of its own AVCHD codec which, as far as I am aware, does not deal with 720p AVCHD...

One other thing you might want to try to get around that 'same as first clip' business is to make a template using one of your captured original clips. In VS, go to Tools > Make Movie Template Manager. In the dialogue box which appears, click the Add button. In the new dialogue box which appears, give the new template a name (e.g. AVCHD Lite). In the little window above that, which says mysterious 'File path', click on the button to its right which only has '...' on it, and navigate to where one of your original files are stored, and select it. Then click OK to get out of all that and back to the VS main screen. Now when you click on Share > Create Video File, at the very bottom of the drop down menu which appears, there should be a new entry: AVCHD Lite. So next time, when you finish you project, choose that instead of 'Same as first clip'.

(NOTE: do NOT try to change the settings within this new template. That simply causes it to collapse into a standard definition template, and you have to start all over again.)

With the new AVCHD Lite video file you produce, you can down-convert it to standard definition video. Note here that your original video is progressive scan, but a DVD must be interlaced. So it will end up with a frame rate of 29.97 fps. I would use Upper Field First because that is the Field Order used by all interlaced high definition video, both HDV and AVCHD. If you in fact, in your experiment to date, used a default template, I would guess that it uses Lower Field First, which again could account for some of the low quality results your received.

Another possibility is to use Share > Create Video File > AVCHD. This should at least keep it as AVCHD, albeit with a larger frame size. I would choose the 1440 option as it is closer to your original frame size of 1280 x 720, and uses a bitrate of 15 Mbps which I assume is also closer to your original bitrate (12 Mbps?)

Looking forward to hearing back from you!!

Thanks again for your reply!

When I load the exported HD file (.mpg extension)back into VS, right-click on the clip, and look at Properties, I see the following:

File Format: NTSC HDMV
Video Type H.264 Video
Attributes: 24 bits, 1280x720, 16:9
Frame Rate: 29.970 frames/sec.
Data Rate: Variable Bit Rate (Max 16568 kbps)

By the way, when i look at the properties of the original .mts file (direct from the camera) in VS12, all the properties are exactly the same as above (including HDMV), with one exception--the frame rate is listed as 59.940.

As said though, the problem doesn't just seem to be about exporting, but how VS12 reads these clips in the first place. Because--although the original .mts files play back fine in VLC, they play back very weird in VS12, with the video appearing to move too fast. That same weirdness is retained in export, even the SD DVD .mpeg2 export. So, although VS12 can import these .mts video files, it seems to interpret them incorrectly.

By the way, I tried a demo of Cyberlink Director 7, and it seems to import and play back the .mts files correctly.

Could the problem be related to the fact that VS12 thinks the clips are HDMV, rather than AVCHD? (All the other info is correct though-codec, resolution, etc.) Would that misinterpretation make the video run too fast? Why does it think it is HDMV? Does it not recognize 720p as AVCHD?

[Ken Berry]

As far as I am aware, VS uses that HDMV designation for all high definition video. It is NOT the same as HDV, which is the other version of hd video apart from AVCHD. None of my AVCHD video shows with the title "AVCHD". It is all labelled HDMV, including my HDV. I think it is a designation developed for Blu-Ray and means something like High Definition MoVie mode... And Blu-Ray can use either AVCHD or HDV.

[ajfinch]

I can add that I have bought a Panasonic HDC-HS200K HD camera, and are having "quality" issues trying to convert from AVCHD to DVD standard mpeg. The issue as far as I can tell is in the conversion / interpretation of the AVCHD side of things as no matter what my end target file I still get noise artifacts such as blocking and horizontal streaks of blocks. The other clear give away is looking at the customise filter window, and looking at the original source with issues. Not that these are actually present in the original files. The only time the video codes correctly is when the output target parameters are selected by the MPEG optimiser. At this point I suspect video studio is not actually doing any decoding, rather it¡¦s cutting and splicing the existing files.

I'm currently utilitising VS X2 ultimate (with Nov 2008 Patches) on Windows XP SP3 with Direct X 9.0c ( March 2009 release ). Hardware is Intel Q9550 with 4GB ram and NAS (linux samba server) based storage.

I suspect from what I have read this weekend is AVCHD is an evolving standard in which folk like Corel will always be having problems whilst companies like Panasonic continue introduce their own tweaks to the AVCHD standard.

Sounds like a familiar story with being on the bleeding edge of technology. Sounds like I will need to wait for Corel to play catch up.

Is there anything we can do to help Corel with these issues? Like submitting example Video that is causing issues.

[Ken Berry]

Re the submission of sample clips to Corel, see the Sticky on AVCHD transition blips at the top of this Forum's main page.

[me]

As far as I am aware, VS uses that HDMV designation for all high definition video. It is NOT the same as HDV, which is the other version of hd video apart from AVCHD. None of my AVCHD video shows with the title "AVCHD". It is all labelled HDMV, including my HDV. I think it is a designation developed for Blu-Ray and means something like High Definition MoVie mode... And Blu-Ray can use either AVCHD or HDV.

OK, but you were surprised that when saved to hi-def file, "same as first video clip", mine saved to .mpg file extension with h.264 codec.

I still don't see an answer to why i had the problems i had though.