Hybrid DVD--AVCHD and SD DVD on same disk?

me · Post by me » Sat Jun 13, 2009 5:17 am

Hi-

I just got a camera that shoots video in AVCHD.

i see that with AVCHD footage in VS, if one uses a regular DVD disk, one can burn as AVCHD disk, or standard-definition DVD.

i understand that the AVCHD disk will not play in a normal DVD player, but only in a Blu-Ray player. I think it will also play in most computers, correct, even without a blu-ray drive?

I don't own a blu-ray player or burner, and I don't think that most people that I would make DVDs for, have blu-ray either. So, i need to make standard DVDs.

However, I'm wondering, if there is enough space on the disk, is it possible to burn both the standard DVD-Video (standard definition) and the AVCHD (hi-def) footage to the same disk, and let the user choose between the two? Played through a normal DVD player only the standard option would play, but through a blu-ray player or computer the AVCHD option would also be available. (Perhaps even better than a choice, would be an automatic determination--if the disk could know--according to which machine it is being played on, in which format to play?)

Anyhow, provided enough space (that is, short enough video, and/or compressed enough), is it possible to create some kind of hybrid AVCHD-DVD-Video disk?

Post by **Ken Berry** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 8:03 am

In a word, no.

First, if you maintain your original high quality AVCHD settings, then using a maximum bitrate of 18 Mbps you will only be able to fit about 20 minutes of AVCHD onto a single layer DVD. So that tends to rule out burning anything else to the same disc.

Second, an AVCHD hybrid disc is in effect a Blu-Ray disc though it just happens to use a standard definition DVD. As such, it burns the full structure of a Blu-Ray BDMV folder on the disc and then 'completes' it -- like a standard def DVD does -- so that nothing else can be burned to it once it is completed.

As for you other question, a hybrid disc will play in a standard definition burner in a computer, but you have to have Blu-Ray rated software, like Power DVD 8 Ultra, Power DVD 9 and WinDVD 9 Blu-Ray. Nero with the Blu-Ray plug-in will also play it. WMP won't.

me · Post by me » Sun Jun 14, 2009 1:47 am

Ken Berry wrote:In a word, no. First, if you maintain your original high quality AVCHD settings, then using a maximum bitrate of 18 Mbps you will only be able to fit about 20 minutes of AVCHD onto a single layer DVD. So that tends to rule out burning anything else to the same disc.

Second, an AVCHD hybrid disc is in effect a Blu-Ray disc though it just happens to use a standard definition DVD. As such, it burns the full structure of a Blu-Ray BDMV folder on the disc and then 'completes' it -- like a standard def DVD does -- so that nothing else can be burned to it once it is completed.

As for you other question, a hybrid disc will play in a standard definition burner in a computer, but you have to have Blu-Ray rated software, like Power DVD 8 Ultra, Power DVD 9 and WinDVD 9 Blu-Ray. Nero with the Blu-Ray plug-in will also play it. WMP won't.

Thanks for the info. It is unfortunate that one cannot make a hybrid disc like that, so that one could send the same disc to everyone. I don't think that a large percentage of the public has blu-ray players yet.

It seems like a large percentage of the public wouldn't be able to play an AVCHD disk on their computer either, from what you write, since it requires special software.

How about Macs? Will current macs play avchd disks out of the box?

On Windows, i would guess that the freeware medial player VLC would play them, as it can play the .mts files on the hard disk, I assume then, it could probably play the disks. Anyone tried?

Post by **Ken Berry** » Sun Jun 14, 2009 3:59 am

I am afraid I have no idea about Macs...

And yes, VLC will play .mts and m2ts files on the computer. However, I just tried playing two separate hybrid discs on VLC on one of my computers on which it is installed, and it said it could not open them. (They both played in WinDVD 9 which I have on that computer as well.)

Interestingly, when I used VLC to open the Stream sub-folder in the BDMV Blu-Ray folder on one of the discs, VLC recognised the m2ts files in the folder, and tried to play them, but did so erratically. In retrospect, that computer is a P4 3.0 Ghz with HT, and so is not rated to play AVCHD videos, even on the hard disc, so that is probably why they did not play on that computer. (That is another major limitation of AVCHD in general, and not just hybrid discs -- you need at least a decent Core 2 Duo even to be able to play AVCHD video smoothly...)

EDIT: since writing the above, I have downloaded and installed VLC 0.9.9 on my Quad 6600. But it still cannot recognise the hybrid discs. It will, however, play the high def files in the STREAM folder on the disc properly. I am guessing why it cannot play the disc itself is because it can only detect, in the Open Disc option, DVDs, CDs, and VCD/SVCDs. And while the hybrid disc is on a DVD, the code used to burn it is not DVD code but Blu-Ray code (and Windows detects the disc and shows an icon with BD (Blu-Ray Disc) on it rather than DVD. To play the files on the disc you use Open Folder and navigate to the STREAM subfolder on the disc.

I now see from a quick Google search that it is widely recognised that VLC cannot play Blu-Ray discs in 0.9.9 which is the latest stable version of the program. However, they are working on a version 1.0.0 which is currently at Release Candidate 3 status which can be downloaded from http://www.filehippo.com/download_vlc/changelog/

I have, however, just downloaded and installed that version, whose notes say, a bit ambiguously IMHO, that it has "EXPERIMENTAL Blu-Ray Disc and AVCHD Folders support". But it would still not play an AVCHD hybrid disc in either of the two DVD drives installed in the computer. So I think the above message means that you still have to use the Folders route I outlined above.

I also confirmed what I originally knew in theory -- that to play an actual Blu-Ray disc in the computer, the computer itself has to have a Blu-Ray player/burner installed. I only recently bought my first set of Blu-Ray commercial discs and tried one of them in my computer. But of course, the standard DVD players would not even see a disc in them, and the software players I have installed -- PowerDVD 9 and WinDVD 9 with Blu-Ray -- also obviously could not see them. So I assume, without a Blu-Ray player in the computer, the only way to play them would be to copy the contents of the disc to the computer hard disk and play it from there.

(For the sake of completeness, I have a Sony PlayStation 3 which is rated to play both Blu-Ray and AVCHD hybrid discs. That is connected via HDMI to my HDTV and the quality is fantastic. The PS3, moreover, is networked to my computer, so I can play all my edited high def video -- and all my other multimedia, for that matter -- directly from the computer to the HDTV via the PS3. However, I acknowledge that few of your friends and family are likely to have that sort of set-up either...)

Anyway, sorry to have become so long-winded about all this. But I actually became interested to see what would happen myself!!

me · Post by me » Mon Jun 15, 2009 9:41 pm

Ken Berry wrote:I am afraid I have no idea about Macs...

Anyone here know about Macs?

Let me explain the question. (A little different from the original one.)

Regarding these AVCHD disks burnt onto regular DVD discs.

I'm wondering, if one gave one of those to the average Joe, and didn't know if he had a blu-ray player or not (most people don't, and I don't), and said that if he doesn't have a Blu-ray player, it could be played on a computer, how true would that be for most folks. (I guess I should also mention that they can be played on a Sony PlayStation, I think someone wrote that. Or was it only PlayStation 3? I know nothing about those. Are they pretty widespread?)

Well, as far as PCs go, from the answers I have received here, the answer seems to be no. They can be played on a PC, but with special software, etc., that Mr. Average Joe probably does not have installed. So, unless one knew that the person was a video geek who would have such software, it probably wouldn't make sense to give them such a disk.

I'm wondering if that is any different on Macs? Of course, to play AVCHD, it would have to be a recent model, fast processor, etc. Could someone with a recent model Mac, without having any special software, put in one of the AVCHD disks and play it?

Thanks for your input.

sjj1805 · Post by **sjj1805** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 2:00 am

No it would not play on a MAC without a proper Blue Ray software player either. Sorry.

me · Post by me » Mon Jun 22, 2009 4:49 am

sjj1805 wrote:No it would not play on a MAC without a proper Blue Ray software player either. Sorry.

Of course! That goes without saying!

The question would be though--whether new Macs have such software pre-installed, which clearly seems not to be the case with Windows?

me · Post by me » Mon Jun 22, 2009 2:29 pm

Ken Berry wrote: (For the sake of completeness, I have a Sony PlayStation 3 which is rated to play both Blu-Ray and AVCHD hybrid discs. That is connected via HDMI to my HDTV and the quality is fantastic. The PS3, moreover, is networked to my computer, so I can play all my edited high def video -- and all my other multimedia, for that matter -- directly from the computer to the HDTV via the PS3. However, I acknowledge that few of your friends and family are likely to have that sort of set-up either...)

Thanks for the info. I know nothing about those game things. Is PS3 the only one of them that plays AVCHD discs?

Do people who have it, usually have it connected to their televisions?

Thank you.

Black Lab · Post by **Black Lab** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 3:32 pm

Thanks for the info. I know nothing about those game things. Is PS3 the only one of them that plays AVCHD discs?
I believe that is correct.

Do people who have it, usually have it connected to their televisions?
Would be kind of difficult to play the games otherwise.

Post by **Ken Berry** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 8:40 pm

Of the 'game things', the PS3 is the only one I know that plays Blu-Ray and AVCHD hybrid discs, as well as standard DVDs (and, via the network, just about any other multimedia clip possible as long as it is in a correctly labelled, and thus recognisable to PS3, folder.

But of course there are other Blu-Ray players which are rated also to play AVCHD disc s. Not all, but most these days.

As as Black Lab has caustically added, since the PS3 has to be in effect attached to your TV somehow or other to play correctly, then yes, people usually connect it to their televisions. In fact, I can now use my 46 inch HDTV as a comfortably large computer monitor since I can connect to the internet via the PS3 as well!!!

I even have a special USB Logitech keyboard precisely for this purpose...

Black Lab · Post by **Black Lab** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 8:44 pm

As as Black Lab has caustically added

It was humorously added, as indicated by the winking and laughing emoticons. Caustically added would have been followed by

Post by **Ken Berry** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 8:47 pm

sjj1805 · Post by **sjj1805** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 12:34 am

Ken Berry wrote:...... In fact, I can now use my 46 inch HDTV as a comfortably large computer monitor since I can connect to the internet via the PS3 as well!!! I even have a special USB Logitech keyboard precisely for this purpose...

Damn!

I thought I had the biggest computer monitor, I had a flat screen 32" LCD TV with a VGA input but the sound was a bit poor and it didn't have a built in Digital TV Decoder (Freeview). My Sister in Law won a similar 32" TV with a built in Digital TV decoder whilst playing online Bingo. She didn't want it because she had only recently bought one so I purchased the one she had just won from her. (Had a good deal on the price.)

So the "new" one now sits in the Living room. It also has a VGA input so every now and again I hook up a laptop - great for viewing missed TV programs that are available on TV Station websites like BBCi Player.

The "Old" one is now used as the computer monitor for my desktop in my back room.