WinDV, Analogue capture, Dropped Frames

[Candive]

I have a library of about 50 hours of 8mm and Hi8 analogue tapes and a whole bunch of VHS tapes.

Before converting all my analogue tapes to digital, I want to ensure my system is optimized for analogue to digital capture.

Using a Hi8, 120 min tape as a test, and WinDV to capture as recommended in this forum, I have experienced dropped frames.

In reading the postings to this forum, I¡¦ve concluded that there are 4 possible reasons:

1. My system setup needs to be tweaked
2. Replace my firewire card
3. Replace my firewire cable.
4. The tape itself is the problem and nothing can be done

My system setup and workflow are outlined below. In terms of tweaking the system, I followed Steve Jones excellent tutorial for creating a Video Editing Profile which I found on this forum. Even though it optimized my system, it still didn¡¦t resolve the dropped frames so if there are additional suggestions for improvement, I am more than happy to incorporate them.

If the problem is the firewire card, then perhaps someone can recommend another card or chipset that they have had success with. The card is a Besta brand with a VIA VT6306 chipset. Visiting my local PC shop, I came across a Skymaster card with a VIA VT6307 chipset (upgrade?). I am also aware that NEC and Texas Instruments make firewire chipsets but am not sure what brands contain them.

If it is the firewire cable; usually a new firewire card comes with a new cable so I¡¦ll use that one unless someone swears by a particular brand of cable.

If the problem is the tape itself, then there is nothing I can do and will start the conversion my library.

System
• HP dc7800p Minitower
• Intel core 2 Duo E6550 at 2.33 Ghz, external clock 1333 Mhz
• 2 Gig memory at 667 Mhz

• 40 Gig Maxtor drive exclusively for system and programs
• 80 Gig Seagate drive exclusively for video capture
• 1,000 Gig (Terabyte) Seagate drive for file storage.

• Besta PCI Frewire with VIA VT6306 chipset
• Sony DCR-TRV120E video camera to play tapes and pass analogue through to digital signal

• VideoStudio 8 (came with firewire card)
• WinDV
• VideoStudio X2 ultimate

• Windows XP service pack 2

Setup/Workflow
The computer is a standalone setup exclusively used for video and photography. It is not connected to the internet or to any other computer via a network. Windows XP with service pack 2 is installed on the 40 gig C: drive along with all other capture/editing programs. No virus or spyware programs are installed and the Wndows firewall is disabled.

The 80 Gig drive is solely used for video capture. Once the capture is complete, the files are copied to the Terabyte drive for storage. The 80 Gig drive is then quick formatted ready for the next capture.

The Sony DCR-TRV120E is connected to the firewire card. The camera plays the analogue tape and converts it into a digital signal. After a number of complete tape runs (say 6- 10), the camera heads are cleaned with a Sony cleaning tape. Sony documentation indicate that the i.Link baud rate for the camera is 100 Mbps which is well within the capacity of the firewire card of 400 Mbps.

I purchased this used camera on Ebay specifically for this purpose. My analogue video camera died a long time ago.

WinDV is setup as follows:
• Discontinuity Threshold = 0 (disabled)
• Type ¡V 1 AVI
• Maximum AVI size = 31500
• Every N-th Frame = 1

Hard drive setup: DMA is enabled for all drives and for those used for video capture the write behind caching is turned off as recommended by the VideoStudio documentation.

AVI filesize is set to 31,500 in WinDV because it creates an optimal file size that fits onto a single layer DVD drive if I decide to backup all my AVI files onto DVD. Although, with the way prices are going for hard drives, it may prove more economical and efficient to copy the files onto a second hard drive as backup.

I¡¦ve run the same 120 minute tape through the system under a number of scenarios and every time the dropout counter records 36 to 37 dropped frames consistently.

I have also installed VideoStudio 8 which came with the firewire card and used it to capture the video. The result was the same; 36 dropped frames.

Additional tests:
I have captured the video to the 40, 80, and 1,000 Gig drives. I have also changed the virtual memory file¡¦s location to the different drives to see if there is an improvement. There was no change.

I have inserted the firewire card into all PCI slots to determine if sharing IRQs was an issue; no change.

The result is that the dropped frames amount to 36 or 37. One occurs at the beginning when the first image appears. Others occur during the capture and a number occur at the end of the tape.

Any advice would be welcome. Thanks in advance for all your help.

[Black Lab]

I'll start off by saying I have not used WinDV, as I still capture using VS10+, so I can't comment on the AVI file size setting.

I have never had an instance where the tape was causing the dropped frames. That's not to say that is not the cause, but I have never experienced it. Have you tried capturing a different tape? Do you get similar results? If so, I would look at the firewire card/cable. They are pretty cheap and easy to install.

[Ken Berry]

I use WinDV all the time and *never* get dropped frames. So my first suspicion would be a harware problem such as you have described. Changing the Firewire card or cable might help. But I am not sure any recommendation will help as to brands or models. I just use vanilla brand cards which I have in the past bought for around A$20 - 25 with cable included. And they have all worked just fine.

I note though that you have WinDV set to max length of 31500, which is frames, and that translates into only about 21 minutes of video, whereas a mini DV tape will have 60 minutes of tape on it (or 90000 max). I in fact have the max capture of WinDV set to 300000 so that I know it will capture any length of video I am likely to throw at it, in one go.

All that being said, I can think of no reason at all connected to WinDV which would cause a frame loss on such a regular basis every 1.5 seconds or so -- apart from a physical problem with card or cable... or worse, the camera firewire interface. But usually with those, if something goes wrong, capture is impossible totally, not just cyclically. So we come back to the card or cable... especially since it is not just WinDV which does it.

I would suggest opening the case at first instance and make absolutely sure the card is seated firmly. And borrow or buy an alternate cable and test that.

[Ron P.]

Since I too use WinDV to capture, I'll add support to Ken's post. I've never had a single dropped frame, AND I'm still using the same cable that I first purchased about 4 yrs ago, for only $15(US). So I would certainly investigate your card and cable to see if they are firmly seated, and try a new one. They are cheaper than hair replacement..

[tyamada]

I recall back when Service Pack 2 for Windows XP was introduced, there was a problem with the 1394 connections. It seems that the speed was changed from 400 mips to 100 mips. Here is a description of the problem and a fix.

This may or may not be the problem with your computer, however, I suggest you upgrade to XP Service Pack 3. Service Pack 3 supposedly increases performance by 10%. I did notice my computer was faster after I installed SP3. Plus a lot of the hardware/software were resolved.

Edit: Sorry I forgot the link, getting old is hard on the memory.
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/885222

[Black Lab]

Here is a description of the problem and a fix.

Did you intend to include a link?

[skier-hughes]

A few things here
http://www.myvideoproblems.com/ProblemP ... apture.htm
http://www.myvideoproblems.com/Tutorial ... rVideo.htm

This page has a link to the item mentioned above, but it was for firewire 800 1394b ports which had their speed reduced, not normal 1394a firewire 400 ports.

As you always get the same number of dropped frames, then I am going to say it may be the tape.

As you tape is analogue, it could be that at a start/stop place (when the cam was stopped recording and then restarted, there may be a slight glitch, this can cause a dropped frame.
Also with analogue tapes, a frame with a lot of noise can cause a dropped frame.

Have a look through the recording on the pc and see if you can distinguish where the dropped frame is, then match this with the tape in the camcorder and see what is on the tape at this point.

I wouldn't clean the heads after every 10 tapes.
I would get all the same make tapes together, capture those.
Clean heads.
Capture all next make of tapes.
50 hours of use is not massive and if you have all the same make of tape, I'd capture one after the other.

[tyamada]

If you go to the link I finally supplied the problem did include 1394 a and b cards.

I didn't experience any of those problems with SP2 on either the a or b card I had installed. However, there were some computers that had that problem.

I've never experience any problems with my 1394 cards with SP3.

[Candive]

Thank you for all your recommendations. They have contributed in helping me set up a testing strategy to resolve this problem.

Just some feedback before outlining my plan:

Tyamada, thanks for your recommendation and link to Microsoft KB88522. I checked my installed programs and discovered that this Hotfix was already installed. When I purchased my HP computer, it came with an HP OEM version of Microsoft XP Professional. In its wisdom, HP obviously included this Hotfix along with others as part of the system installation. Your suggestion of installing Service Pack 3 is valid and cost effective so this is a simple solution to try.

To answer Black Lab¡¦s query if I tried other tapes? I did try a number of my other 8mm and Hi8 tapes with similar results.

Ken Barry and Vidoman recommended changing the firewire card and/or cable since they never have experienced dropped frames. Certainly these PCI cards are inexpensive these days and won¡¦t break the bank if I bought another one to conclusively confirm if mine is faulty.

Skier-Hughes considered the problem was with the tape because it was analogue and explained it could be due to noise or a ¡§glitch¡¨ on the tape. This got me thinking.

Also Ken Barry indicated that there could be a remote possibility that the camera¡¦s firewire interface may be faulty although highly unlikely since capture would be virtually impossible. Again, this started me thinking about how to test the camera.

Putting all these ideas together made me realised that I missed an obvious test of the system. I have never actually filmed digitally with the Sony TRV120E! As I indicated previously, I purchased this used camera for the sole purpose of transferring my analogue tapes. I own a digital Panasonic SDR-H280 which captures MPEG 2 to a hard drive. I no longer capture to tape!

So the plan is as follows:
Use the Sony to capture digitally. Transfer the DV recording using my current setup. If I don¡¦t experience any dropped frames from the direct digital signal then I can conclude that the camera, firewire card, cable and computer are ok.

If my direct digital test is successful, then I¡¦ll conduct a second test of the pass through process. Instead of using my 8mm and Hi8 tapes in the Sony camera, I¡¦ll connect a VCR player to the camera and pass through an analogue VHS tape. If this test passes, then I can conclude that it is my 8mm and Hi8 tapes.

A third test would be to borrow a 8mm analogue tape from a friend or neighbour which was not used in my old Canon UC30 Hi camera. This may prove difficult, since 8mm tape evolved into mini tape format over ten years ago and my group of friends were not enthusiastic videographers. I was usually the only one with the video camera at all the birthday parties.

I now actually suspect it is my 8mm and Hi8 tapes due to the Canon camera that was used to capture the original video. Come to think about it, the Canon would occasionally ¡§act up¡¨ and would produce noise or the image would distort for a fraction of a second. I remember taking it in for service twice during its life before it completely died and was too old to repair. As suggested by Skier-Hughes, I now believe it is at these ¡§glitch¡¨ points where the frame drops out.

So over the next week I¡¦ll conduct the first two tests which will give me a good indication where the source of the problem is. The third test may take a while but I¡¦m sure some parents at my kid¡¦s school have some old tapes collecting dust and would love to have them converted to DVD.

I¡¦ll report my finding back to this forum. Again, thanks for all your help.

[Candive]

Dropped Frames Resolved: It was the tape!

In my previous post I outlined 3 tests that I would conduct to determine why I was experiencing drop out frames with my analogue capture using WinDV.

• Test 1 - Video tape entirely in digital and transfer it to the computer.
• Test 2 - Rig up a VCR and pass though an analogue VHS tape to the computer.
• Test 3 - Transfer another 8mm or Hi8 cassette which was not used in my Cannon analogue camera.

Test 1:
The first test was pretty straightforward. I just set up the Sony TRV120E with a 90 minute tape and hit the record button. I then transferred the video to my computer using WinDV. Result; no dropped frames. This basically proved that when the source data was digital, the camera, firewire card and cable did not have any problems handling the signal to the computer.

Why hadn¡¦t I done this before? To be honest, I never thought about it. As I mentioned, I purchased this used Sony for the sole purpose of transferring my old analogue tapes to digital. I don¡¦t plan to use it to capture current video since I have a new video camera to do the job.

Test 2:
The second test involved setting up a VCR and using the Sony camcorder as an analogue to digital pass through device. Again, no dropped frames. This test proved that the camera¡¦s pass through functionality was sound. It also proved that the firewire card and cable were sound. The only other possibility would be the tape itself or possibly the read head inside the camera. But if it was the read head or anything associated with the camera, the capture would probably not work at all or have hundreds of dropped frames.

Test 3:
To rule out the camera I found some 8mm tapes I had made back in 1990; almost 20 years ago (how time flies). These were recoded on a different camera to the Cannon I purchased for the bulk of my analogue videos and the video was recorded in NTSC. I thought this would be a great final test to the system. The tape was 120 min long.

Everything started well with no dropped frames. I would check on the transfer every 15 minutes or so. I just happened to be watching the monitor when at 71 minutes the image went blank for a few seconds and there was a transition to a new scene. WinDV recorded 7 dropped frames at this point. In total, 15 dropped frames were recoded during the 2 hours. Why the blank space on the tape? More than likely I had stopped the tape to reverse and review what I had videoed. To ensure I didn¡¦t tape over what I previously captured, I forwarded a bit beyond my last scene. This blank caused some dropped frames but I didn¡¦t lose any actual video.

Test 4:
One last test! I decided to replicate the situation in Test 3 where I used the Sony 120E to video some scenes. I videoed, stopped, reversed, reviewed, then forwarded and started to video again. When I used WinDV to capture the video, at the exact spot I started mucking around with the camera, I experienced some dropped frames. No big deal and it proved that some dropped frames are inevitable. I guess that¡¦s the reason they created the drop frame counter in the first place.

Thanks again to all the forum members who contributed with suggestions. You have been very helpful. I now have my system set to go into full production!