VideoStudio 11.5 Plus lossless editing & saving

Pixelation5 · Post by **Pixelation5** » Mon May 11, 2009 11:33 am

I know lossless editing can be done in VideoStudio 11.5 by saving to an uncompressed .AVI, however, I was wondering if it would be possible to edit a MPEG-2 or AVCHD file without the need for re-rendering it?
Is lossless MPEG-2/AVCHD encoding possible?

skier-hughes · Post by **skier-hughes** » Mon May 11, 2009 12:31 pm

NO, they are lossy file types, so any editing will lead to a degradation.
You can minimise this by the sort of editing you do, cuts will lose less than fancy transitions and effects, so better recording technique will improve final product most.
No pint in taking an mpeg to uncompressed avi to edit, you'll lose quality in the two conversions, uAVI is some 65gb per hour, so takes up masses of hdd space and is hard to edit unless you have a well specced machine.
dv.avi is 13gb per hour and virtually lossless in editing.

Black Lab · Post by **Black Lab** » Mon May 11, 2009 12:59 pm

BUT, quality loss is in the eye of the beholder.

Surely multiple re-renderings will result in quality loss. But one, or even two re-renders? Maybe. Maybe not.

Coral · Post by **Coral** » Mon May 11, 2009 1:06 pm

The first signes of deterioration from re-rendering will be noticed in fast moving scenes

Post by **Ken Berry** » Mon May 11, 2009 1:39 pm

It depends also to an extent on what kind of mpeg-2 you are talking about. All mpeg-2 is lossy, but not all mpeg-2 is created equal...

If you are talking about high def mpeg-2 i.e. HDV format, it is 1440 x 1080 normally (and rarely, on some cameras, 1920 x 1080) and with a bitrate of 25 Mbps. I find that re-rendering that, using the same settings, you are quite unlikely, with your naked eye, to be able to detect any visible deterioration in quality after 1, 2 or even 3 re-renders. (I haven't taken it beyond that, and can't think of a situation where I would have to...) I concede that undoubtedly some loss of quality has occurred. But since the original quality is extremely high, and the same properties are maintained, the human eye is probably not so good that it will notice the loss.

Ditto with AVCHD/mpeg-4, as long as the original high quality properties are maintained -- though here I confess I have not re-rendered more than twice...

Converting from high def mpeg-2/HDV 25 Mbps to high def AVCHD mpeg-4 18 Mbps (which is the maximum bitrate offered by VS at the moment for AVCHD, despite the new international standard of 24 Mbps) when you burn an AVCHD hybrid disc also to my eyes does not appear to diminish the original HDV quality. However, when I have lowered the bitrate to 16 Mbps or lower, loss in quality, and some pixelation/blocky artifacts start to become visible.

Pixelation5 · Post by **Pixelation5** » Mon May 11, 2009 2:51 pm

Ken Berry wrote:despite the new international standard of 24 Mbps

... Oh no... lol

What was the standard before this? Also, how long did the standard last?

Post by **Ken Berry** » Mon May 11, 2009 9:59 pm

The previous AVCHD max was 18 Mbps ... but remember I am only talking about AVCHD. The HDV standard has for a long time been CBR 25 Mbps.

Pixelation5 · Post by **Pixelation5** » Tue May 12, 2009 2:06 am

I see... Well, I couldn't care for AVCHD now.

So HDV is the standard in camcorders?

Who created HDV and where can I find its official organizations page?

From my research, HDV is simply 1080i @ 25BPS, right? I don't see any new camcorders that support this.

skier-hughes · Post by **skier-hughes** » Tue May 12, 2009 8:19 am

I wouldn't say there is any standard in camcorders at the moment, you can still buy minidv, hard drive, dvd, solid state models, and each recordable material has it's own file type.

Post by **Ken Berry** » Tue May 12, 2009 8:35 am

HDV is 1440 x 1080i and 25 Mbps. The current Canon mini DV HDV camera is the HV30, and there is also a Sony equivalent, though its model number escapes me for the moment.

Pixelation5 · Post by **Pixelation5** » Tue May 12, 2009 12:08 pm

I see, I am really lost atm with what to choose.

I see most digital video as going backwards, and film being superior. But who produces film cameras these days? Atleast with film I could scan it and save it into a lossless format.
I also personaly like films texture.

I find that all digital video cameras use some form of lossy compression. Isn't there a way to record using a raw or lossless format?

Pixelation5 · Post by **Pixelation5** » Tue May 12, 2009 12:24 pm

I've been doing some research and 16mm cameras are still being made by a company called Arii. Does anyone know the price for one of these or a place to pickup a cheap new one? The 'advances' in digital technology don't seem to apply to 99% of the digital cameras out there. I can't stand for compression.

Black Lab · Post by **Black Lab** » Tue May 12, 2009 1:11 pm

Can I be so bold as to ask what you are purchasing this cam for? Sounds like you are making a major motion picture...

Pixelation5 · Post by **Pixelation5** » Tue May 12, 2009 1:19 pm

I am producing my first musi cvideo.

I never susbstitute quality when recording image, as things only happen once, so I want to capture it in the highest quality possible.
I don't see any reason as to why I should use a degraded quality.

Look at most of the internet. We've had xDSL and cable for how long, and yet everyones still using compressed .jpg files... and flash 'videos' such as on YouTube... Oh, don't get me started on that! LOL

Earlier today I went into a major store in the city as I wanted to survey how popular enhanced definition is (didn't find one set), and I noticed that all the 'HD' content on free to air TV was compressed artifacted rubbish... What's the point in all these wonderful 1080 TV's if no ones actually going to transmit at maximum quality?
I recommended and explained to the guy that he should play blu-ray movies to show off the full technological capabilities of the televisions, but he could not understand what I was saying. This is so typical of sales people. They have no idea what they are selling.

Black Lab · Post by **Black Lab** » Tue May 12, 2009 2:06 pm

Since you are on the VS forum I suppose you are using VideoStudio. As Graham (skier-hughes) stated in your other thread, if you want top quality then use top quality. VS is a consumer editing program.

As far as camcorders are concerned, if Sony HVR-V1U's or Canon XH-A1's (both HDV) or Panasonic AG-HMC150's (AVCHD) (just to name a few prosumer models) are good enough to be used by professionals for HD TV programming, then they are good enough for me. Then again, they are surely being used with professional NLE's on pro systems.