Creating Blu Ray from current projects

[JackTheBear]

It looks like I can render my video project to an AVCHD and or BluRay file on the hard drive (and they are exactly the same size) and will burn to a BluRay disc. But when you render a "create a video file" project, you do not get the option to create a main menu and or chapter menus as if you we doing a disc. I am wondering if I can go >create an AVCHD disc > single layer > the project shows it is larger than a regular DVD - but burn it anyway on the much larger BluRay disc? Does that make sense. Have not tried it yet - I wonder if I am going to get an error message? I like having the chapter menus, but I think I am going to like having my entire vacation on ONE BluRay disc as opposed to three. When I output the project using the BluRay option - the entire 25 gigs is used and this doesn't make any sense. I have yet to get a stack of bluray disks, but don't want to make too many coasters, if you know what I mean.

[Ken Berry]

That all sounds very strange. I just happen to be editing some HDV, so I did a quick Share > Create Disc > Blu-Ray. When it opened, it had the HDV project I was editing in the burning timeline, so I added some completed HDV files, totalling some 45 minutes, and it showed as only consuming 10 GB of the 25 GB total available. And remember HDV files (mpeg-2) are bigger than AVCHD (mpeg-4).

Moreover, I had no trouble creating a menu, including with chapters for each separate title. I didn't burn because I don't have a Blu-Ray burner. But I just wanted to check it out.

So it seems there must be something wrong with your set-up or workflow.

But I don't think your idea of trying to create an AVCHD disc, build a menu and try to burn it to a Blu-Ray disc will work. To VS, an AVCHD disc is the hybrid disc, and it will be looking for a standard DVD to burn to. If you use a Blu-Ray disc, I suspect it will reject it and ask for a 'proper' disc!!

And by the way, if you look at an AVCHD file and a Blu-Ray file (if you chose the 1920 option), their properties are the same (though the Field Order may be different). So it is no surprise that the files will be the same size.

[JackTheBear]

Thanks for replying to my post, Ken
The project I am trying to burn shows, on the time-line, 1:30 - Would need 2 DVD 4.7 disc's to burn this project in AVCHD. When I try to burn it to a single 25 g BluRay disc - it looks like it would take more than one of these as well. When I use the "create a file" option - BOTH projects only take up 10 g of space and are nearly identical in size. But the create a file option does not offer the option of creating menus as does the "create a disc" option does. If I use the "create a file" option and burn it to a BluRay disc with some third party software - it only uses 10 gig of the 25 gigs available - BUT no chapter or menu options - also an wondering if I burn more than one folder with say, two subjects, will the BluRay player give me the option to skip folders?
Anyway - it looks like I can burn long projects to a BluRay disc as long as I use the "create a file" option and then use a 3rd party software to burn it to a BluRay disc. Just won't have menus and chapters - UNLESS someone has done this before.
Cheers
JackTheBear

[JackTheBear]

Whilst trying to make my project fit on one BluRay disc - I noticed if I change the "video data rate" from 35k to 30 k - wala - the project fits on the BluRay disc - Soooooooooooo now I have to ask - If I keep the quality at 90 or 100 and lower the data rate, am I going to notice any difference in the finished product. Forgive me for asking about the video data rate - could find it in a web board search.
Cheers
Vic

[Ken Berry]

I repeat: VS X2 will definitely allow you to create menus on Blu-Ray discs. There seems to be some basic misunderstanding on your part. No, there is no option to make a menu when you choose the Share > Create Video File option. No program that I am aware of offers menus at that stage. You are still in the editing phase when producing a new video file. Creating a menu is part of the authoring (i.e. burning) phase, so you are only offered the chance to build a menu when you choose Share > Create Disc and the burning module (where the menus are located) opens...

As far as lowering the bitrate is concerned, if you think about it the highest bitrate for HDV is CBR 25 mbps. The highest available on only a handful of AVCHD cameras to date is VBR max 24 mbps. So lowering the Blu-Ray rate to 30 mbps, which is higher than both of the foregoing, should not show any loss of quality at all. In fact, I would have thought you could lower it to 25 mbps and still be producing the same quality as the original.

While on the subject of bitrate, I note that you said you have 90 minutes of project and if you burned this to AVCHD hybrid discs, you would need to split it over two DVDs. Well, of course that is possible, but I suspect -- since you are worrying about the final quality of your work -- that you would definitely not like the result. My own AVCHD discs *always* use a max bitrate of 18 mbps (the old maximum bitrate for AVCHD), and that allows me to burn no more than 20 minutes of HD video to a single layer DVD at top quality. If you lower the bitrate, of course you can fit more video on it, but equally, the quality drops off noticeably. It may still be better than a standard definition DVD, but not by much...

[JackTheBear]

Thanks for the response, again
I am aware of the fact that I can't create menus with the "create a file" option. But I think between what you have to say and my "pranking" with the settings, I may be close to burning a BluRay disc. I think my AVCHD settings were 15k and the output was great and the size of the file was about the same as the BluRay file. I think my first burn will be at an 18K data rate and see how it goes. I am really happy with the AVCHD disc's I have turned out to date - My goal in getting a BluRay burner was not to have better quality, but to put more on the larger capacity disc. If I cut the data rate to that of AVCHD it looks like it will work - The only think left to do is try it. I am working on a project and will let you know how it goes. As always, thanks so much for your help.
Cheers
JackTheBear

[Ken Berry]

Good -- and I will look forward personally to hearing the results. The time is drawing near when I will have to consider buying a Blu-Ray burner as more people start to buy Blu-Ray players, and thus the idea of distributing copies of such discs to family and friends becomes more practical. In the meantime, though, while I still produce AVCHD discs, that is to send to friends who I know have Blu-Ray players that will play them. For myself, I am more than happy to stick to just producing my edited high definition video files. Then I play them direct from the computer which is networked to my PS3 (which happily plays just about any kind of multimedia, including both HDV and AVCHD), and that in turn is connected via HDMI to my 46 inch HDTV. The result is marvellous -- and though I only have the PS3 menu, I am happy enough with that for the moment.

[JackTheBear]

You know, the AVCHD was just fine - If there were a DVD disc that held 25 g - that would be great - I guess there is one - it is called BluRay.
I guess I will have to experiment with putting multiple AVCHD projects on a BluRay disc - I wonder if the Panasonic BD60 will recognize folders - if it does - I am home free. ha
Cheers and thanks again for your precious time.
JackTheBear

[JackTheBear]

I was hoping I would have better news, like "Wow you should see the BluRay disc I burned with X2" But alas, this is not to be - at least for now. I am worn out typing my 21 chapter menu over and over again. Hours of wasted time since X2 doesn't even "scratch" the BD disc. Last nite I finally got all the menus right and went to burn - In a few seconds it said it was 3% done - it stayed that way for 10 1/2 hours. Tried again this morning - had to redo the menu's twice - went to burn - after about 10 mins got a X2 generated message that the program needed to close - Of course all the menu data is gone when this happens. I wrote the following to Corel. If the program can't handle what it says it can - they should warn people rather than making $ by pushing a program that doesn't work. The concept of X2 is nice - but it does NOT use the resources of computers designed for this purpose. EVERYONE says Video Studio is slower than S____ ! It has been this way for a long time. The Smart Proxy files have helped - but don't make any fast moves or you will get a "Not responding" message and it will lock. I am frustrated in that after spending about a $G for a machine dedicated to making videos with this program - I can't.

Sent this message to Corel (as if they care)

Have had Video Studio since ver 6 - But I think the program has met its match. I bought a new computer for the purpose of producing HD videos. Recently I purchased a BluRay burner to produce an HD vacation video. I managed to work the video on the time line adding music, titles and etc. Went to "Share" "BluRay" and that is when I ran into problems. While making chapter titles, the program continuously stalled and sometimes never recovered. In order NOT to loose my chapter titles, I did some and then closed the program to save them - over and over again, until they were saved. Made the menus and then tried to output the project to a 25 gig BluRay disc. After 10 plus overnight hours - only 3% was done - the same as a few seconds after it started. Tried again this morning - had to retype and remake the main and chapter menu¡¦s AGAIN - and then tried to output to the BluRay Disc and after 10 mins got an error message "Corel Video Studio has a problem and needs to close." I suspect a compatibility issue with Vista 64 bit or something like that - I have a quad core processor 8200 - 8 gigs of memory - 640 g hard drive - I try and stop all other programs running in the back ground and the program still crashes over and over again. Perhaps "technology" has passed X2? On the plus side - this program on this computer HAS produced AVCHD video discs of under an hour - But it has met it's match with BluRay.
Thanks

Of course if anyone has any suggestions - I am willing to try - Will be crazy if I have to format a new hard drive with Windows XP Pro and then try to work this project - I think I need a nap!

[Black Lab]

Instead of spending the time building a 21 chapter menu only to have it fail, why not try a simple 2 or 3 chapter menu just to see if it will, in fact, succeed? If it does, then you can remove VS or your burner as the problem.

[JackTheBear]

Thanks - At the present time I am attempting to "Create a File" on the hard drive - This appears to be working. I'll see how that goes and then try your suggestion.
If it works without the main and chapter menus - I could always burn it to a BD with third party software.
Also am wondering if I could burn multiple AVCHD projects to a bluray disc and will it recognize them in individual folders - Haaaaaaaaaa I only have one blank BD at the present time. I better order a few more, eh?


I will try your suggestion to make a smaller chapter menu. The project is 1 hr 40 min long - and I am using a 25k data rate - there appears to be more than ample space for it - Perhaps a lower data rate might do the trick -

I am not a quitter - I'll exhaust any and all suggestions before I give up and go back to burning AVCHD's - which are great - I just need more of them to burn the project AND HEY, I am not one NOT to try new things. What do you think the lowest data rate could be before the video wouldn't look BD any more?

[Black Lab]

I should clarify. Not only should you try a smaller menu, but also try a smaller project. Just use a few clips - 5 minutes worth is more than enough. Create a couple of chapters for this "new" project and see if that can be burned.

[JackTheBear]

Thanks so much for all your help - Have to get more BluRay disc's - Now I do have to take issue with Corel - If they make a product which is advertised to make BD videos AND the program allows me to make them - it should work - right? I know I can't squeeze 6 gigs onto a 4.7 gig DVD - I accept it and I burned plenty of beautiful ACVHD disc's - multiple chapter menus and all. If I have to use multiple BD discs - I have not upgraded. Do you see my side of things. Working with X2 - HD and BD discs shouldn't be experimental, but it seems to be.
I appreciate what you all have said and certainly will give them a shot - If it works with a smaller menu, so be it. Corel should tell us of the limitations and if it has, my apologies - Oh the "Create a file" says it is 60% done - Onward thru the fog................. :twisted:

[Black Lab]

If they make a product which is advertised to make BD videos AND the program allows me to make them - it should work - right?

That's what we are trying to determine. Try the small project first. Unfortunately there is more to it than simply dropping the disc in and pressing "burn". Sometimes a little experimentation is necessary.

[JackTheBear]

Please forgive the long post

Where do I start? Check the previous posts, I guess.
Let me first say I have upgraded my system.
The GeForce 9600 card and the single hard drive just didn't cut the mustard.
I had the extra 640 7200 rpm drive - using it for the video files and bought the GeForce GTX260 at Fry's.

*********COMPUTER INFO *******

Acer Aspire M5621
5.9 WEI
Intel Quad Q8200
8 GM DDR2 Memory
64 bit Windows Vista Home Premium OS
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 260 Video Card (Barely fit in case) This thing is a monster - Probably will get a new case in the future. It was one tough install - It covered half the SATA connectors - but I had two with 90 deg plugs and they managed to clear the card.
Two (2) WDC WD6400AAKS Hard Drives - One for the storage of video files only
Pioneer BD-RW BDR-203 BluRay Drive
Media - RiData BD-r 4x single layer 25 gb Disc (came with the burner)
Corel X2

I had a large project to burn and I had to see if the software and hardware would do the trick. I didn't want to cut corners. I believed; "If X2 was supposed to do it, it would." AND, I only had one blank BluRay Disc to try.

I was to render about 1 hr 40 mins of HD video 1920x1080 including a couple of hundred jpg images attached to the end of the video files. I also wanted to put a large chapter menu (21 chapters)

With my pervious hardware system, the project kept crashing and I never got close to burning the single BD disc. I was, however, always able to burn the projects on regular DVD discs in the AVCHD format. These were just fine, but since the BD discs held 5 times what the 4.7G DVD; I thought I could put the entire two disc project on one BD disc, in the BD format. I emailed Corel and their tech suggested I save the two projects using the "Create a file" option, to my hard drive and then import them back into X2 and go on and "Create a Disc" along with the chapter menus and etc. The tech said it would go easier on the system rather than dealing with all those breaks and transitions.
So I created two files of about 6 gigs each, on the hard drive, in the BluRay HD 1920 save mode. When I got down with the chapter menus and etc., I reduced the Video data rate to 18000 kbps to insure the project would fit on a single 25 G BD Disc. I feel now I could have increased the data rate closer to max so as to utilize more of the BD disc. But I felt I had to lower the data rate since the system had crashed with a higher rate with the previous hardware setup. Does this make any sense???????????? Ha.

It took a little more than 4 hours to process and output the video to the 25g BD Disc. I thought that was acceptable........hey, it didn't crash and I was glad for that.

*****HERE IS WHAT WENT TO THE BD DISC********

MPEG files
24 bits, 1920 x 1080, 29.97 fps
Lower Field First
(HDMV-NTSC), 16:9
Video data rate: Variable (Max. 18000 kbps)
LPCM Audio, 48000 Hz, Stereo
Quality Setting 90%

1 hour 35 mins 44 sec
13.90 GB of the 25 GB disc

*********INPUT FILES INFO AFTER CREATE A FILE OPTION*********

Info on the files
NTSC HDMV
each about 6 gigs
H.264 Video Upper Field First
24 bits 1920x 1080 16.9
29.970 frames/sec
Variable bit rate (Max 16000 kbps)
Audio - Dolby Digital Audio
48k - bit rate 256kbps


Bottom Line******
I did create a genuine BluRay Disc using Corel X2 - It is over an hour and a half long. I don't think the quality is as good as the AVCHD discs in that I am seeing some pixilation during motion and pause. When I compare the BD video to the AVCHD, it is not as good.
I would like to do the project over and perhaps render it in the 1440 mode, with a higher VDR rather than the 1920 to see if it would look better. I still want to try burning previous AVCHD projects to a BD disc and see how they look. The object of this adventure was not to improve on quality (the AVCHD's are plenty sharp on my 720p HDTV's) but to get more content on the larger disc.
Of course there are always more questions than answers like:

What to do with Video Save Options ?????
Would be nice to know how to use this for optimal results - Also would like to know how to reduce the quality of the editing play back screen - I think this would speed up the process of editing. Am looking thru the hundreds of pages on this BB and am finding lots of good info. Unfortunately when one looks at the page counter, it gets a little intimidating.

Can you burn a big BluRay project with lots of chapters, music, images and more????? You bet you can. But you better have a computer with the power to do it. Even with the above computer, if I push it, I will get the "Not Responding" message, which if I had a dime for everytime I saw that message, I would be rich!

I will order more BD discs now that I know it works. I want to see if I can improve the quality of the BD output without increasing the number of discs.......If I have to use more discs, I might as well continue to burn AVCHD on DVD's. Any suggestions are welcome.