New Info re: AVCHD transition "blips"

[Black Lab]

But what version of VS are you using? It has been well documented that earlier versions had this problem. It was thought that X3 did not have these problems, but that claim has since been challenged.

[Myrtille]

Jeff

As indicated in my intial post of Nov 4, 10, my current is X2 Pro. I precise that I bought VS9 as a full package and then I upgraded it to VS10, VS11Plus and X2Pro via downloads.

I've opened the Incident: 101129-000213 at the Corel support :

Using X2 Pro (12.0.98.1 Pro) from an upgrade bought on 2008.12.11, I edit AVHCD rushes shot with Sony SR8 at1440x1080i ; the rendered video in mpeg-2 format displays different types of blips.
The most common blip occur at the end of a clip : it looks like the 2 last frames are doubled ; assuming a clip with 50 frames, the rendered video shows frame 47 48 49 50 49 50. This happens with or without transitions.
Another type of blip occurs at the beggining of a clip with a transition. Assuming a transition from clip A to clip B, at the 2 last frames of the transition, the corresponding frames of the clip B are doubled ; assuming a 1s transition, the clip B is rendered 20 21 22 23 24 23 24 25 26 27.
This problem has been reported in the Ulead forum of X2 ("AVHCD transition blips")without a solution. It's now reported to also exist with X3.
I was about to upgrade my X2 version to X3 but as long as this problem is not solved I will hold on.
I am sure this problem related to rendering AVHCD videos has already been reported to you and I would like to know the fix.
I don't know whether an installation of X2 (or X3) from scratch give the same problem or not. If this is related to upgrades, please provide me with the complete fix.

The first answer I've got from the support team was a recommendation to visit the knowledbase, the forums and the FAQ and to use the fee based priority support ! No need to mention that I immediately reacted : in my opinion, this problem is a product defect and as such must be taken into consideration by Corel regardless the class of support. I'm awaiting for a better answer.

Myrtillle

[Ken Berry]

As you will see from a separate thread today, Corel have now released a further Patch (number 3). Go to http://www.corel.com/servlet/Satellite/ ... 9537398721 Although it says Patch 2, when you start downloading it, it is in fact Patch 3, and is said to have made changes to the way the program handles AVCHD: "Better stability and performance when working with AVCHD™, QuickTime® MOV and MP4 files ". Hopefully, for those still suffering it, this might include the transition blips...

[geoffschultz]

I wish that I could say that this patch addressed the issues that I brought up, but it has the exact same problems. I did submit a report via the Corel support web site which included a VCF and 2 video clips which should allow them to reproduce the issue at will.

I will also point out that the problem does not occur when generating a NTSC DV output file, so the error appears to be specific to generating HDV files. One would think that it wouldn't be too hard to find and fix this error as they seem to be processing the frame buffers out of order.

-- Geoff

[Ken Berry]

Can I ask why, if you are starting out with AVCHD clips, you are then generating a HDV clip from it? Certainly, I don't get the blip when generating HDV clips from original HDV clips... either in X2 or X3.

[geoffschultz]

Ken,

Your question confuses me. I have AVCHD video clips because that's what my Sony video camera produces. I want to produce HDV files for uploading to YouTube which I link to from my web site. I have tried every output format available from VS which generates high def video and they all exhibit the same type of problems.

This is a clean install of XS Pro X3 on a clean Windows 7 machine. I have installed patch 2 and patch 3, both of which exhibit the same issue. You can find a copy of the file that I submitted to Corel support at http://www.geoffschultz.org/temp/stutter.zip and you can try it yourself. It contains 2 video clips and a VCF file. Look at the output starting at 2 seconds where there's a transition from the clip 1 to 2. Watch the mast of the sailboat as it approaches the bridge piling and at the transition from clip 2 to 3. I'm very happy for you that your system doesn't exhibit these issues, but it's clear that there are lots of people who do have this issue. Modify clip 2's (049.mts) start frame and end frame, generate the output file, and then view the output frame by frame from clip 1 to 2 and clip 2 to 3 to see the various permutations.

As I was writing this, I got the following e-mail from support:

After carefully reviewing this incident it is recommended that you call into our technical support center for further assistance. E-mail is an alternative option for technical support on resolving minor issues. Due to the nature of this particular issue, and the need for interaction, contacting Corel directly via telephone will provide you with a quicker and more tailored solution for the issue you are facing.

I'm a bit concerned that they want me to pay $10-15 to talk to someone regarding a problem that I have clearly documented and provided an example. I fail to see how talking to a support rep will solve this. I have been using this software for many years and I've kept paying Ulead/Corel for upgrades in the hopes that I'll have a stable product, but they keep letting me down. If they think that I'm going to pay them for support, they're nuts and as much as I don't want to, I'll switch to Sony Vegas which I find to be much more complex, but stable.

-- Geoff

Added: I would be very interested in knowing if other people obtain the same results with the files provided.

[pvreditor]

FWIW, I have created 100 or more videos that I've uploaded to YouTube, all starting with AVCHD from my Canon Vixia HF11 camcorder. I always render to WMV 720p files and only one or two of these have shown any transition blips. I use VS Pro x2 at home and VS Pro x3 at work, and none of the 40 or so videos I've rendered with VS Pro x3 have had any transition blips. Again, I render to WMV 720p -- I can understand that not everyone wants to use that as the destination format. However, it works well for my postings on YouTube.

As an example, here is a promo for a YouTube reality series I shoot and edit called Only Rula!:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgRvwbyXq0w

All but two of those clips were shot with the Canon Vixia HF11 AVCHD camcorder, and it was completely edited with VS Pro x2. (And, FWIW, I played the acoustic and electric guitars for the promo reel.)

For me, the blips are primarily a problem going from AVCHD to AVCHD. I have seen only one or two blips going from AVCHD to WMV 720p. And the WMV 720p blips were only when using VS Pro x2... I have seen no blips with VS Pro x3 when rendering to WMV 720p.

Bob Kovacs
http://www.bobkovacs.com

[geoffschultz]

Bob,

You should note that YouTube now stores 1080p format if you upload it in that format.

As I noted in my writeup, you don't have this issue if you trim your clip by at least 2 frames on either end. Perhaps the clips that you use in your videos are trimmed.

I also note that outputting in WMV 30p gets rid of some of the transition blips, but not all of them. The bottom line is that I shouldn't have to pick an output format simply because the other formats don't work properly.

Here's a very brief video showing a typical problem that I have. You'll note the stutter at the beginning of the clip and then the frames backing up (as evidenced by the waves moving backwards for 4 frames about 1/2 of a second into it.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLSG_q5gd-0

-- Geoff

[pvreditor]

I missed the point about not trimming the very end of clips. I have been doing video since deep in the analog era and learned that you always let the recorder roll for at least a couple of seconds before and after the desired material. Even in the digital age, I try to do that, although occasionally clips have to be used from the very beginning or end. Fortunately, I can usually plan to have a second or two of pre/post-roll. I certainly understand if not everyone can do that.

And I was aware that YouTube accepts 1080p material. For my use, WMV 720p has been reliable and I like the smaller size of the files, so I hesitate to experiment. With a producer breathing down my neck to complete episodes immediately, I go with what's proven.

But thanks for the additional clarifications.

Bob Kovacs
http://www.bobkovacs.com

[geoffschultz]

I talked to tech support and they said that I should use Batch Convert to convert all of my AVCHD files to MPEG Transport Stream files. After playing with the settings, the only acceptable encoding that I found was 100% Quality, MPEG-2, 2 pass, but even there I could see some slight artifacts in detailed subjects. Note that the size of the clips increased by about 50% when converted to M2T format.

I will say that the rendering process for assembled video is much faster than with the straight AVCHD video. I suppose that in reality that I only have to convert video where I need the entire clip and can't trim any of it. It would just be very nice if Corel were to simply fix this problem as they've clearly known about it for a LONG time.

-- Geoff

[maxfrost01]

I've just been experiencing a bad case of the blips when I rendered my X3 project as a high-def, PAL, 1400 x 1080 mpeg2 file.
The blips appear immediately before most simple transitions and cuts. It even appears (sometimes) in the middle of a clip.

This is the first X3 project I've completed and the first time I've had this problem. Never had it in X2.

Intrestingly, this is also the first time I've used 'Multi-trim Video' to trim my video files. Usually I just drop the whole file into the timeline and edit it using the standard layout buttons available. It just strikes me as interesting that the first time I use this method to trim my video clips I get a problem that seems to be related to the first and last few frames in each clip.

Coincidence?

[Black Lab]

Coincidence?

You tell us. Try again using your normal method to test the results.

[maxfrost01]

Jeff,

I will, I will - just as soon as I've sorted out my other editing problems

Meantime, here is an X3 review from Amazon which may (or may not) be relevant.

"Well, eventually, after downloading huge patches from Corel's website and spending 2 weeks communicating with the support team (eventually by telephone) I have got somewhere.......the key workaround, for my Panasonic Video Camera, was to chop the first frame or two off EVERY CLIP (no explanation given. Editing is then fine, with few hangups, as long as you keep off "multi-trim" edit, and just keep splitting scenes where you want to cut."

Looks like my multi-trim theory is worth pursuing...........

[geoffschultz]

"Well, eventually, after downloading huge patches from Corel's website and spending 2 weeks communicating with the support team (eventually by telephone) I have got somewhere.......the key workaround, for my Panasonic Video Camera, was to chop the first frame or two off EVERY CLIP (no explanation given. Editing is then fine, with few hangups, as long as you keep off "multi-trim" edit, and just keep splitting scenes where you want to cut."

If you read my posts in this thread (just before yours), you'll find a lot of information regarding this. There was no need to have spent weeks researching this as all of the info was already here.

-- Geoff

[maxfrost01]

Hi, Geoff

Could you just point me to the bit in your posts where you cover off the possible problem of Mulit-trim? I'm sure it's there but I can't see it and it's been a long editing day