x2 / hd/ hdr Series Advice

RickMen · Post by **RickMen** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 11:32 pm

Hi all,

This is my 1st post, I recently found this forum & I have found it to be invaluable. I'm hoping you can steer me in the right direction.

I have been using VS 7 SE with my Panasonic Ex1 (Mini DV) on a P4 PC (with firewire) for the last 5 yrs making the odd wedding video for friends, home movies of the kids' birthdays, xmas etc. To date its been a 'hassle free' experience and lots of fun. But I'm now ready to take the next step up.

I want to stick with VS (it seems so easier to use) and I'm keen to try all those new features on VS X2. I don't want to learn another NLE program.

I want to start capturing in HD, to this end I've been eyeing off the Sony HDRXR200v/HDRX500V cameras, the features sound great.

My questions are:

1) your thoughts on the VS X2 & Sony HDRXr200v/500V combination?

2)What are the key aspects that I need to consider when purchasing a d/camera?

3) From what I've read about AVCHD I now have major concerns, should I wait another year in the hope VS sorts out the AVCHD issues?

4) If I don't wait, that sort of PC hardware do I need to make editing AVCHD a 'hassle free' experience without spending a small fortune on hardware?

4) What are my alternatives?

Post by **Ken Berry** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 11:44 pm

Welcome to the forums, but I am afraid my first comment to you must be BEWARE!!!

A simple reading of even just a handful of recent threads on this Board will very quickly reveal the enormous range of problems people have editing their AVCHD video smoothly with VS 11+/11.5+ and now X2. Unfortunately, that also seems to apply to many other editing packages from other brands as well. Essentially, the camera manufacturers are not following one standard for the AVCHD they use, and the software manufactuers haven't caught up. The camera makers supply very simple editing software with their AVCHD cameras, and it works well, but is simply not sophisticated enough.

Moreover, as if this were not enough, even people with very powerful computers share many of the same problems. (I have a Q6600, which is no longer the most 'powerful' computer by a long run. But even people with more recent and more powerful computers share problems with AVCHD.)

You *can* use VS more successfully when you use its SmartProxy function with AVCHD, but it is very slow to generate the proxy files. You could probably also edit it successfully using the Cinema Craft encoder, but that is expensive in its own right.

And it is impossible to say when the software might be able to do the job correctly...

So my own advice remains, as it always has, think seriously about HDV instead of AVCHD. The cameras are bigger, yes, but the technology is proven and standard. Moreover, VS10+ can handle it easily!

RickMen · Post by **RickMen** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 12:12 am

Thannks ken.

My initial reactions is either:

a) start investigating HDV camera options? Can you recommend anything in the $1000 - $2000 price range? OR

b) Still go with HDRXR200/500 but record in SD and wait until the software & hardware catch up.

I welcome your thoughts!

Post by **Ken Berry** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 12:52 am

Well, your option 2 is certainly a possibility, but as I said above, there is simply no way of knowing when (or even, at this stage, if) the software will ever keep up with the camera technology. And, though you will obviously know yourself and attitudes, I personally doubt very much that if I had a high technology camera in hand like an AVCHD one, that I would be able to keep myself from using it at its highest capability and instead in effect cripple it for SD usage. More to the point, if it takes a year or more for the software to catch up, by then, there will be a whole new generation of AVCHD cameras on the market, so why spend the money now when you will probably be able to buy a more advanced camera later for probably a cheaper price (given how prices continue to fall...)

As for HDV cameras, I personally happen to be a Canon fan, and have a HV20 myself. There is now, however, a HV30 on the market as well, and it is well within the limits of price you mention. Sony also gets good reviews for its HDV cameras.

For the sake of fairness, you need to realise that HDV cameras are a good deal larger than many AVCHD cameras, and even larger than recent mini DV cameras. I don't personally mind that. In fact I have an SD mpeg-4 video camera as well in my collection, and it is the size of an AVCHD SD-type camera (not the hard disc type), and I find them too small to handle with any stability.

The Sony AVCHD HD camera in which you are interested is, of course, a good deal larger, and as far as I am aware, not too different in size from the HDV models from what I can see from their photos...

The only other thing you probably need to consider is that the HDV cameras use a standard mini DV cassette, though of course films in high definition mpeg-2 (as compared to mpeg-4 for the AVCHD models). It will film 1 hour per cassette. Some people find this is 'old' technology, but mini DV cassettes are still very freely and cheaply available. Its quality is at least equal to that of the AVCHD, and some at the professional end of the market, say that it is marginally higher quality and less prone to the shimmer that accompanies too fast a pan in AVCHD. (From personal experience, though, I would still warn everyone not to pan horizontally too quickly with *any* high def camera, whether HDV or AVCHD.)

But the main point -- and I can't emphasise it enough -- is that HDV is proven technology, and pretty easy to edit, even with programs as old as VS10+.

One other thing I should have mentioned is that if you in fact go ahead and buy an AVCHD camera, your current P4 may not be able to either edit or even play it (it is even more demanding of resources to play than to edit, believe it or not!) You will need at the very least a P4 3.0 GHz with hyperthreading to be even able to edit AVCHD using SmartProxy. Without SmartProxy, you could not even begin to edit it. And I can tell you from personal experience, that such a P4 will definitely not be able to play AVCHD smoothly in any circumstance.

So in other words, if you buy such a camera, you will also have to splash out on a much more powerful computer. Good excuse, maybe, but you need to be aware of this. On the other hand, your P4 will have no trouble at all with HDV.

RickMen · Post by **RickMen** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 1:34 am

Thanks Ken. I now might not be ready for AVCHD.

One last question, I noticed you keep referring to the taped based form of HDV & not a hard drive version, any particular reason why?

I noticed that JVC have a camera that records HDV onto a Hard Drive ( JVC Everio GZ HD40 ), would this work well with VS X2?

Post by **Ken Berry** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 3:49 am

Sorry, but the HD40 is an AVCHD camera. If you meant to refer to the JVC GZ-HD6 to which you referred in another post, I don't know anything about it apart from a review I read of it. It is, as you say, a hard disk camera (120 GB) and as far as I am aware would work with X2 -- though one thing I am not sure about is that it can apparently film using 1920 x 1080 .m2t format and a 26.6 Mbps bitrate. It was my understanding that HDV is an can only be 1440 x 1080, and that cameras which use a high frame size inside the camera are downgraded to this standard frame size on capture. But someone will surely correct me if I have this wrong or suggest ways of actually getting this full 1920 x 1080 mpeg-2 onto your computer... if that is possible, of course.

RickMen · Post by **RickMen** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 2:30 am

Ken,

According to the JVC website the HD40 is a dual format model, it can handle both AVCHD and MPEG2 TS.

I asked Corel Support if the HD40 was compatible with X2 and they said they couldn't guarantee it would be compatible.

I have been advised by various users on this forum that the HD6 & HD7 models are compatible with X2, so you would think that the HD40 would fall into the same basket? Or is that too much of an asumption??

Post by **Ken Berry** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 3:43 am

Hmmm!

Looking more closely, I see that you are correct. I was taken in by the big 'AVCHD' printed on the side of the camera! But it seems that it in fact is quite versatile. You might want to Google for some reviews of it, though, because it appears there is a trick. Apart from AVCHD, the mpeg-2 Transport Stream it also films in is a full 1920 x 1080 high definition version, but apparently it is not the same as HDV format. It is apparently peculiar to JVC and thus would need to be edited using the tweaked version of Power Producer which comes with the camera.

However, that being said, there is apparently also an internal setting in the camera which allows it to be captured as 1440 x 1080 HDV. And that is what would be compatible fully with VS...

In other words, it doesn't just do two formats, it does three! The things you learn on this Board never cease to amaze me...!!

JohnDale · Post by **JohnDale** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 4:26 am

http://forum.corel.com/EN/viewtopic.php ... ight=batch

JohnDale · Post by **JohnDale** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 4:33 am

Hi Guys

The best way I have found to edit AVCHD is to convert to High Def mpeg first and files can be batch converted with either VS11.5 or X2. This, in my experience, is also quicker than using proxy files. Also full Hi Def can be used i.e. 1920 x 1080. Only downside is the loss of 5 channel audio (Sony HDR SR12) which in most cases really does not matter.

http://forum.corel.com/EN/viewtopic.php ... ight=batch

RickMen · Post by **RickMen** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 4:37 am

Thanks JohnDale but...

I clicked on the link & read the post but I'm not sure what its got to do with my question(s), can you please elaborate? I may have missed the point your trying to make.

RickMen · Post by **RickMen** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 4:43 am

JohnDale,

I see, thanks. Good to know.

My current thinking is that the JVC GZ-HD40 is a dual format camcorder (both MPEG2 TS/TOD & AVCHD formats) and I was planning to use the MPEG2/TOD option on the camcorder in the immediate future (if I purchased it), that would allow me the option of switching to AVCHD format (without needing to buy another camcorder) down the track when the all the major issues with AVCHD format have been sorted out. I also have the option of HDV with this camcorder if needed.