Problems burning a video on DL disc

[Davidk]

Is there any history of problems with VS11 burning a video project with large (4Mb) clip files to a DL disc??

Problem:
I've captured files of several VHS movies, aiming to convert them to a DVD. However, to fit them onto a 4.7Gb single layer disc required even a short 86 minute movie to have its scan/burn parameters degraded so that it fitted onto a standard disc. A 105/115minute movie required a lot of degrading. Generally, changing the compression scan rate down was the most effective in reducing required storage space for the resulting movie video.

However, when converting analogue to digital there's an inevitable loss of resolution even with HQ scan and compression rates, and to have to degrade that further to fit onto a DVD disc has the end result of non-linear effects on the resolution of the resulting video, even when viewed on a standard PAL TV.

So I investigated and tried it using a DL (DVD+R) 8.6Gb disc - lots of space on the disc without any change to the quality of the captured files, VS11 will burn it and because its standard spec DVD players will play it.

The video consisted of two captured files - the 1st at 3.9Gb (the file size limit of WinXP based on FAT32) and the second at 2.3Gb. I set them up in a project file and simply burned them without any menu.

When I played the resulting disc on a DVD player, the imagery froze briefly about 20sec (see later comment for how I got that time) before the end of the first clip file, and then played on but reverted to the start of the clip. In testing I haven't been able to determine whether it automatically reverts to the start when playing, or in the rendering and burning process it has rendered the 1st clip twice (despite the default preference setting to play on to the next clip).

I've played the project files in the editor thru transition from the 1st large clip to the second, without any problem. In doing that, I determined time where the freeze and reversion to the start of the clip on the DL disc took place.

I've burnt several 4.7Gb discs with degraded parameters using large clip files and this problem does not occur on a standard disc.

This problem is repeatable on the DVD player, and also using the PC and WinDVD, so it seems to be pretty clear that the problem is generated from the burnt DL disc.

help.

Davidk

[Trevor Andrew]

Hi David

Looking at bit rate and quality
As a guide:-
8000 Kbps produces top quality dvd video for 60 minutes, Just below 4.3 Gb will fit a standard disc
6000 Kpbs produces very good quality dvd video allowing 90 minutes per disc.
4000 Kbps produces VHS quality for 120 minutes.

Have you tried capturing using 6000 kbps. This will be ok for the 86 minute video and will be very good quality.
After editing you would not have to re-code the video below 6000. No change in quality.
Capturing to 4000 would allow for VHS quality.

Sorry cannot help with Duel Layer discs.
Check Corel site for any updates for VS 11. I know for some versions there have been burner updates.

[Black Lab]

From what I have read on this forum it seems like DL discs themselves can be a bit flaky.

[skier-hughes]

Sounds like it is where the transition from one layer to another has taken place, you need to ensure you set the change of layer at the point between the two video files.

[Davidk]

Thanks for the responses so far.
Re the quality settings - for normal length movies, say 105 minutes, I've been forced down to 5000k at 70% speed quality just to fit onto a 4.7Gb disc: At that rate there's some distinct blurring (loss of sharp edges and fine detail) going on the final result. Hence the investigation of DL units which have twice the capacity and should be able to store the captured videos "as is" without further degrading to fit a disc size.

Re the disc quality - DL has been around for several years and the disc concerned is an Imation unit.

Re transitioning from one layer to the next - maybe, but don't know. In any event, the error is occurring within 20sec play time of the first end of clip file. How one would force a layer change at clip end is unknown.

My readings of how DL works suggest two methods of layer translation for DL discs:
1. starting the disc from the outside (not the normal inside) and translating to the second layer on the innermost track (to minimise the switching time) before reading outwards again; or
2. starting from the innermost track and writing to both layers concurrently. Needs small changes to the way the tracks of each layer of the disc are burnt to do that.

There seems to be no controls in VS to change this - presumably it is defaulted in the type of disc (DVD+R DL) and format of the result (DVD Video), and hence my query about any history with VS in this regard.

The affected disc has the burn region (the area where the surface has visually changed colour after burning) from the inside outwards 2.5cm (out of a total of 4 cm available) from the centre, so my guess is that VS has used method 2. Also because the outer section of the disc seems unburnt, it looks like (no way I know to prove it) that at the end of clip one (software on look ahead has seen end of clip and simply decided that was it) it is simply going directly back to the start of the disc and playing from there - it looks just a momentary image freeze and then auto re-play at end, except that option was deliberately selected off when setting the burn preferences. And if there were bugs in the burn software for DL, how the editor played the clip transition in the project file would be immaterial.

DL discs are not cheap at this end of the world - about $5 each, compared to $0.50 for the 4.7Gb variety. Experimenting seems to require changing the burn parameters, which is why I started the DL thing, and simply repeating past process seems highly likely to get the same result. So I've been reluctant to experiment until the user experts have commented.

Davidk

[Black Lab]

for normal length movies, say 105 minutes, I've been forced down to 5000k at 70% speed quality just to fit onto a 4.7Gb disc:

You should be able to fit about 60 minutes at 8000 kbps, 90 minutes at 6000 kbps, and 120 minutes at 4000 kbps. So your 105 minutes at 5000 kbps is about right, and will result in quality not much better than VHS. Just the nature of the beast.

[2Dogs]

I think your problem is a write quality issue with the DL disc. Whilst it's true that DL discs have been around for quite a few years, that doesn't mean they're easy to write to or 100% reliable. Some people will only use Verbatim DL blank discs.

When you look at a write quality scan of any DL disc, there are many more errors in the lower layer, so you need to be sure to have a DL disc that works well with your particular burner.

You could possibly verify that you have a disc write issue by running the "benchmark" test on the disc in Nero CD-DVD Speed, part of the Nero toolkit or available as a free download from the Nero site. The test should show a smooth graph of read speed, rising as it gets to the layer break and then falling as the disc is read back towards the centre. Any sharp dips in the graph indicate a problem, with possible negative effects on disc playback.

In any case, with the high price of DL discs, I think you would be much better off using single layer blank discs, preferably good quality ones such as Taiyo Yuden Premium Grade, usually available mail order. Otherwise use a good known brand which you know works well with your burner. Sony and Verbatim can be quite good.


What format are you capturing your footage to?


There a couple of other approaches or "workflows" you might try if you're not happy with the picture quality you get capturing at 6000kbps or less.

Since the source is analogue, you should be getting good results with just 5000 or 6000kbps - check this forum for posts by "Devil" on the topic - but it may be that your capture device is not doing a great job converting to mpeg2.

So the first alternative is to capture at 8000kbps, or whatever gives you acceptable picture quality. Then use VS to create DVD folders as if you were going to write to a DL disc.

Next use DVD Shrink, a freeware program, to shrink the DVD folders down to be able to fit a single layer disc. If you enable the in-depth analysis and high quality adaptive compression options in Shrink, you get very good results.

The second alternative would be to capture to DV avi, if your capture device allows it. Then output your VS project containing the DV avi footage to whatever bitrate is required to fit to a single layer disc, say 4000 - 6000kbps mpeg2. You might find that this workflow gives you acceptable picture quality, since it's VS doing the conversion to mpeg2 rather than the capture device.

If you are already capturing to DV avi, then the DVD Shrink method might be the way to go.

[Davidk]

Following the post from JVC, I checked a number of things:
1. the analogue to digital conversion package is a Kaiserbaas KB401 unit - essentially the A/D chip set in a small external USB housing with RCA style video and audio plugs to connect to the analogue source. It comes complete with Cyberlink software which has been tuned to operate with the converter.

I capture using this at the highest quality it will permit - HQ video and MPEG audio.

The resulting files are MPEG2 and loaded into VS it shows their properties as:
format - PAL DVD 4:3
video - mpeg 2 upper field first 24 bits, 720x576, 4:3
frame rate - 25fps
data rate - variable 9000Kbps max
audio - mpeg layer 2 16 bit stereo at a bit rate of 224kbps.

These files scan OK in the editor and when burnt to a 4.7Gb disc, although as I said the compromises needed to get the required capacity degrade it somewhat. The difference may supposedly be "acceptable" but that doesn't mean it isn't noticeable - the best comparison I can offer is the difference between seeing the same imagery in PAL and then being shown it in NTSC.

2. Tried the CD-DVD speed check suggested. The version in my OEM Nero kit would not look at the DL disc (the data windows were all blacked out and the start button greyed), but showed data on a standard 4.7gb unit. Downloaded the latest version from the site but there was no change in response.

The documentation seems to be really spread all over as a series of articles, rather than say a pdf file. Could not find anything on testing DL units, so it seems like this test tool isn't updated for DL discs.

3. I'll experiment a bit with a parameter change. But first a query on it. In the VS Create disc/Preferences/Project settings box, select
- change MPEG settings
- choose customize from the list
- select the compression tab
and you will see a speed <---> quality slider, which in my case defaults to 70%. Changing the numbers between 70 and 100 doesn't seem to affect the amount of storage required in any significant way. Can anyone throw light on what that slider does and why the quality defaults to 70 rather than 100? As a comment, the setting suggests to me that in burning a video from the specified files it will generate an output which is 70% of the quality of the source.

Thanks to all for the help so far.

DAvidk

[Davidk]

Following the post from JVC, I checked a number of things:
1. the analogue to digital conversion package is a Kaiserbaas KB401 unit - essentially the A/D chip set in a small external USB housing with RCA style video and audio plugs to connect to the analogue source. It comes complete with Cyberlink software which has been tuned to operate with the converter.

I capture using this at the highest quality it will permit - HQ video and MPEG audio.

The resulting files are MPEG2 and loaded into VS it shows their properties as:
format - PAL DVD 4:3
video - mpeg 2 upper field first 24 bits, 720x576, 4:3
frame rate - 25fps
data rate - variable 9000Kbps max
audio - mpeg layer 2 16 bit stereo at a bit rate of 224kbps.

These files scan OK in the editor and when burnt to a 4.7Gb disc, although as I said the compromises needed to get the required capacity degrade it somewhat. The difference may supposedly be "acceptable" but that doesn't mean it isn't noticeable - the best comparison I can offer is the difference between seeing the same imagery in PAL and then being shown it in NTSC.

2. Tried the CD-DVD speed check suggested. The version in my OEM Nero kit would not look at the DL disc (the data windows were all blacked out and the start button greyed), but showed data on a standard 4.7gb unit. Downloaded the latest version from the site but there was no change in response.

The documentation seems to be really spread all over as a series of articles, rather than say a pdf file. Could not find anything on testing DL units, so it seems like this test tool isn't updated for DL discs.

3. I'll experiment a bit with a parameter change. But first a query on it. In the VS Create disc/Preferences/Project settings box, select
- change MPEG settings
- choose customize from the list
- select the compression tab
and you will see a speed <---> quality slider, which in my case defaults to 70%. Changing the numbers between 70 and 100 doesn't seem to affect the amount of storage required in any significant way. Can anyone throw light on what that slider does and why the quality defaults to 70 rather than 100? As a comment, the setting suggests to me that in burning a video from the specified files it will generate an output which is 70% of the quality of the source.

Thanks to all for the help so far.

DAvidk

[Black Lab]

That slider supposedly controls the speed of rendering vs. the quality of the output. Most people just leave it at the default.

[2Dogs]

The resulting files are MPEG2 and loaded into VS it shows their properties as:
format - PAL DVD 4:3
video - mpeg 2 upper field first 24 bits, 720x576, 4:3
frame rate - 25fps
data rate - variable 9000Kbps max
audio - mpeg layer 2 16 bit stereo at a bit rate of 224kbps.

These files scan OK in the editor and when burnt to a 4.7Gb disc, although as I said the compromises needed to get the required capacity degrade it somewhat. The difference may supposedly be "acceptable" but that doesn't mean it isn't noticeable - the best comparison I can offer is the difference between seeing the same imagery in PAL and then being shown it in NTSC.

Since mpeg2 is a lossy format, you might expect to see some degradation when re-encoding to a lower bitrate to fit on the disc.

Do you have the option to capture to DV avi?

(I see no mention of that in the Kaiser Baas specs)

2. Tried the CD-DVD speed check suggested. The version in my OEM Nero kit would not look at the DL disc (the data windows were all blacked out and the start button greyed), but showed data on a standard 4.7gb unit. Downloaded the latest version from the site but there was no change in response.

The documentation seems to be really spread all over as a series of articles, rather than say a pdf file. Could not find anything on testing DL units, so it seems like this test tool isn't updated for DL discs.

Nero CD-DVD Speed has been able to deal with DL discs for many versions, for several years. Is the DVD drive you tried to use it in DL capable? Use the "Nero Info Tool", also part of the Nero toolkit in your O.E.M. Nero, or again available as a free download from the Nero site, to check the capabilities of the drive. Make sure the drive can read DVD-R DL or DVD+R DL discs. If it can, then the greying out may be caused by the disc being bad.

If your capture device will not allow you to capture to DV avi, then I believe it would be worth trying the DVD Shrink workflow I outlined before. The advantage is that you can retain the mpeg2 properties in your VS project, and take advantage of the speed benefits and lack of picture quality loss you can get when most of the project is Smart rendered, and then shrink the resulting DVD folders with very little picture quality loss with DVD Shrink. You may also find that the whole process will take less time than simply re-encoding the original video to a lower bitrate in VS.

I just don't think DL discs are worth bothering with - they are far too picky to write to, and far too expensive compared with more reliable single layer discs.

[Davidk]

Experiment(s) complete, and I have to say it was a disappointing result.

The DVD drive I am using for this is an LG GH20N unit, capable of using both R-DL and R+DL discs and DVD video. There's a support list a mile long but these are included.

I tried nero info on the malfunctioning imation disc, and it said the disc was DL, 4Gb capacity: proof I suppose that VS only burnt the first clip, which was 4Gb long (actually, 3.892 Gb if one was being pedantic). Nero benchmark would not work on this disc, but when I put a clean one in the drive, it recognised the disc and had data but would only do tests on a create disc function. Which I did, and trapped the screen of the finished graph result, but it used up one write-once disc in the process. There were some peaks in one of the 3 curves on the graph but no apparent speed issues. The presentation does not indicate what the green yellow or blue curves are for.

jpg images of both these results are available if I had somewhere to send them.

Next, I got some verbatim R+DL discs, and wrote the same clip files to one of them using the VS default mpeg burn parameters: 2 stage scan on on, the auto re-play was off and proceed to next clip explicitly set. The resulting video was flawed in the same way and at the same place that the original imation one was. The nero test info result was the same for this disk.

A comment on these clip files. In the movie I was working with:
- the end of the first clip at the 4Gb file limit is real close to the capacity limit of one side of the disc.
- the break occurred at the point where the heroine high on caffeine has fallen backwards off a mountainside onto a tree hanging over a large drop to water. Hard to miss when looking for a problem.

Two different brands of DL disc and several examples broke in the same place at the end of a large (4gb) clip. That large clip was the first of several in the project line.

General conclusions:
1. VS has a problem in large clip transition when burning to DL disc. Specifically, the image written to disc terminates at the end of the clip and it automatically re-plays; both of these violated the configuration setting for the burn. The same thing happened on several discs and two brands of DL disc. I don't think disc errors could be blamed for the repeatability I am seeing.
2. JVC is right on the money - use standard DVD discs.

Davidk

[Davidk]

Postscript
The Kaiserbaas/cyberlink capture system does not allow anything but mpeg format capture for video - range of quality choices expressed as HQ, SQ, EP etc, and audio can be either mpeg or LPCM (whatever that is). HQ and mpeg are the defaults for video and audio respectively.

After the previous problems on DL, I burnt the same clip files to 4.7gb disc at a compression rate of 5500, and the disc both burnt and played fine.

In the previous tests I used the same capture clips to try and minimise the number of things which were changing between any test. Having one DL disc from a package remaining I decided to try my luck with a different movie/capture files, and different capture file sizes, say around 3.5Gb.

The cyberlink power director capture software allows 2 choices for file size on the target media - the OS default off, or on. For a CD, no doubt it would be 700-oddMb, but in this case the media capacity exceeded the nominal file size maximum for WinXP. No specific size selection permitted in the latter case, so I decided it was better to at least have the file size under control rather than random - although possibly it would have turned out to be the same.

Setting up VS to burn the clips on the disc, the displayed capacity use bar showed 6.98Gb when I hit the burn button. 3 hours later when the software reported burn successfully completed, the capacity was a tad over 4Gb. Playing the disc under WinDVD, the burnt disc played fine up to the point where it broke - around 63 minutes of play time - but at that point the same effect was in evidence - video play broke and returned to the start and began an auto re-play.

[Davidk]

Post-postcript
I've continued (intermittently) worrying at this.

The analogue capture package I described uses Cyberlink PowerProducer as its video software. It allows burning to DL disc so I tried that, mainly to see whether it was the burner or the video software. Just assembled the captured files and burnt without further processing. PP burnt 6.5Gb of files to an 8.5 Gb DVD +R DL disc OK, no failures at the 4gb point, but the final disc when played had a lot of 'fuzz' in the imagery (like a marginal signal TV). In that respect, VS11 does better - even when the image processing is losing resolution due a lower compression rate to fit onto a 4.7Gb disc, there's no fuzz.

I searched and found a firmware upgrade for the DL burner; applied that and tried it again with VS11. It looked good - 7Gb of files to be processed and burnt, and as I watched it the progress indicator certainly kept that target displayed all the way thru conversion and writing to completion. Once the "completed successfully" message box came up, however, the file capacity on the burn bar said 4.1Gb and so did windows explorer when I checked it. Replay thru WinDVD confirmed that it broke in mid-picture way before the end.

I've never received any response at all from Corel to the support request I filed for this issue - despite their claim of two business days. That's no response at all, as opposed to suggestions that did not work. My conclusion from all the evidence is that - despite the commentary about DL disc faults - is that VS11 does have a burn to DL disc problem. It failed 100% of the time when I used it this way, using several brands of DL disc, yet a competing software package could burn 6.5Gb to a DL disc on the same burner using the same video files at the first attempt.

I am not sure whether the converted file just stops at the 4Gb point (the way the burn bar displays progress and the lack of any error messages clearly suggests that the software thinks it's done the job it was tasked to do, but the output file is only 4Gb big) or whether the output sequence is interacting with the burner in a way which is not errored, but the end result is that VS11 won't burn a file bigger than 4.0- 4.2 actual Gb on a DL disc.

The lack of any response at all from Corel support makes me think they know that.

[Trevor Andrew]

Hi

This may be just a senior moment, a stab in the dark.
There has been a lot of reference to 4 GB size. Everything you say seems to indicate that the render is limited to 4 Gb, and that doesn¡¦t make sense.

In the past the first response you would have got would have been Fat32.
So are your hard drives all NTSF.

If your burner working folder is on a drive that is Fat32 then the max render / convert size would be 4 Gb.
(assuming you are converting in the burner module)