unfinished DVDs from Create Image Burner and ISO files

[Trevor Andrew]

Hi Mark

Sorry if I keep on about file sizes, but you state Quote:-
My DVDs run for about 1hr 24mins, the finished version, with titles etc are 4.30gb so well inside the permitted area.
No this is not well inside the permitted area..................

4.3 Gb is the capacity of a dvd, it may, and I say may take a little more, but you are very much on the limit.
Do not get confused with 4.3Gb and 4.7 Gb. Both are the same.
Ok
1 Kb = 1000 or does it.
1Kb = 1024
You will see both of these types when viewing your files.
Always use the lower figure.

Ok
A video 1 hr 24 minutes will need a bit rate of about 6000 to produce a file below 4.3 Gb.
I can only assume your bit rate is a little over 6000.

You do not give the properties of the video files you are using.
Place the 1hr 24 min video in the timeline and right click, select properties, what are they?

[markpritch]

Hi Trevor
You are absolutely right, thanks.
I have been all day playing with these things (good job I'm retired!!)

First thing today I tried a full version on DVD+R RW but that didn't work either.
Knowing that I could get a complete DVD but without titles, chapters etc. led me to think about what you had said in your previous response (when I was quoting colours from CDSpeed) and I thought 'maybe I am trying to get too much on'
This is very confusing because I've managed to produce DVDs where, in the burner, they have been anything between 4.30gb and 4.38gb (with motion menus of a full 30seconds) and here I was at 4.33gb.

However, I took it a step at a time and burned one with a full title page but no chapters and got a complete DVD. This was about 3.99gb.

I then did another with full title and chapters with no motion (this had been set at 30secs) and again got a complete DVD. This was about 4.03gb and in both these cases the bottom line did not go into the yellow.

I then went up to 20seconds of motion (4.21gb) and it did not complete.
Here I was 50pct into the yellow.

Further tests showed that I could go to around 10-12 seconds of motion
but because of the music fit I eventually settled for 8 seconds only (4.09gb) which took me about 15pct into the yellow. This has recorded perfectly and I have just this minute finished taking a copy from the ISO (as a test) and that, too, is fine.

I used a variable bit rate with a maximum of 6800 but realise now that I will have to bring that lower if I am to allow for more motion in the chapters. When I bring the mpeg into the time line and look in properties I see the size is 4,131,074kb but obviously this is made much larger by the introduction of titles etc.

I'm late responding as I wanted to stay off line while I did all of this but, at last, I think I have seen the error of my ways and really appreciate all the help you guys have given me.

2 Dogs will be pleased to hear that, with the adjustments he recommended to my 116D (and with the reductions in file size due to cuts in the motion) the burn time has dropped overall from just over 50 minutes to 18 minutes, great stuff. To reproduce the disc via the ISO, using CDSpeed takes less than 5 minutes.

Wonderful!!
Thanks guys
Mark

[Trevor Andrew]

Hi Mark

Thats good news

I ran a quick test using the trial X2. (just a few days left on this one)
The Gb indicator in the burner window doesn¡¦t seem that accurate.
I added a few files up to about 4 Gb but the indicator showed lower by about 0.12Gb
I know that¡¦s not a lot but when your on the limit it makes a difference.
( as I said it was a quick test and haven¡¦t had time to reproduce the results)(Create Menu being unchecked)

Any how Mark I would recode/render the videos to 6000. (well at least 6500)
Create your own template.
Using Make Movie Manager --Add option, you browse your hard drive and select your Mpeg 2 file (1hr 24 mins one)
This will create a template using these settings, now hit the edit button and change the bitrate.

Now start a new project adding your video.
Share Create Video File using your template, should be at the bottom of the list.

I doubt if you will see much difference in quality.

See my guide below for Make Movie Manager details.
There¡¦s also a section on Bit Rates & File sizes. ( a test I did some time ago, but still relevant)

[markpritch]

Thanks Trevor
I've had a look at your help pages and will do another version at around 6300 VBR and we'll see what happens.
You guys have been such a help........
Many thanks to you all.
Cheers
Mark

[markpritch]

Hi Guys
I have just taken a look at the many ISO files I have produced today. Those that play all the way through and those that don't.

It seems that 4,190,000kb is just about on the limit for VS Pro X2 to produce a fully working DVD.

One of my ISOs at 4,194,000kb produced an incomplete DVD.

Just in case that helps anybody in the future.

Cheers
Mark

[2Dogs]

Looks like the forum email notifications aren't functioning, so I managed to miss a whole page of posts on this one!

Yes I was using Verbatim DVD-R 16x but they have all gone so I am now using Philips DVD-R 1-16x.

I was referring to Verbatim 16x DVD+R's! The Pioneer 116D does a good job writing to them, but I haven't seen results to the 16x -R discs, which might not work so well. I've certainly had problems with Verbatim 16 x DVD-R discs with all my burners.

What is the exact spec of your TY's? I would certainly like to try them but there seems to be such a range.

I've tried a few different sorts, but all of them Premium Grade. First of all, I tried 8x DVD-R, silver lacquer finish, and they worked well, particularly with my Samsung burner. Since then I've used 8x DVD+R discs with a printable matte silver finish, and also ones with the silver lacquer finish, and they both gave even better results than the 8x DVD-R discs in terms of the write quality tests I was able to run with K-Probe, a Liteon utility, and CD-DVD Speed. I've yet to produce a coaster with the TY discs, and they all play in all the devices I've tried them in. I just don't bother buying any other brands of discs now. There seems no point in buying mediocre discs for the same price as good ones!

I also know what you mean about uploading the dvd, although I produced that from the original mpeg, which seems to be ok.
It is only the very original clips that made up the mpeg files which were deleted.
So I think it's just a case of uploading each mpeg and then inserting menus etc. and reburning and creating fresh ISOs.

Right, I thought you might have burned your bridges, so to speak.

If you were able to import the DVD from one of the faulty discs, however, and have it play satisfactorily on the pc, it would tend to confirm a write quality issue.

Two of the DVDs are of my first granddaughter and the other 2 are slightly different versions of one of our daughter's weddings so very important to have a 'master' in case these DVDs start to break up.

Beware of archiving stuff to DVD. There's some uncertainty as to how long a DVD disc will last. The TY discs claim to have long lives, but I would keep the information on a hard drive as well, and if the source is from MiniDV tapes, you can keep those rather than record over them.

I'm very sorry but I didn't check the burn times. I'll try to determine when I next do the entire project.

No apology required! Many posters never report back. I was interested in the figure because there is a long-running, ongoing debate on this forum about recommended burn speeds...

Not sure about the maximum project size of 4.19GB theory. I think if you are encoding to variable bitrate video in the burning module, VS would have to err on the safe side to ensure that the 4.35Gb limit wasn't exceeded - but in your case you are following the suggested workflow, with no encoding in the burn step, apart from the disc menus.

I presume the project size you refer to is the size of the resulting DVD folders or disc.

If it is the size of the single large mpeg2 file inserted into the burn step, you would need to add on the menus to that.


Edit: just re-read the posts, including Trevor's thoughts on disc size. I think it may be that VS is being "cautious" when using variable bitrate encoding. It would be interesting to do a test of a similar project encoded to constant bitrate. Since the resulting file size can be exactly predicted with constant bitrate, perhaps you could more closely approach the 4.35GB limit for a single layer disc. Using two pass VBR might change things too, since the first pass will enable VS to figure out the allocation of video bitrate and the resulting file size.

Certainly, when I use DVD Shrink on oversized VBR projects, it has no problem in successfully producing a DVD of exactly 4.35Gb.

[Black Lab]

Beware of archiving stuff to DVD. There's some uncertainty as to how long a DVD disc will last. The TY discs claim to have long lives, but I would keep the information on a hard drive as well, and if the source is from MiniDV tapes, you can keep those rather than record over them.

And remember, hard drives fail too. Check out this recent Videomaker Magazine on Video Media Archiving.

[markpritch]

Thanks 2 Dogs.
Not sure I understand all that you say when it comes to encoding in the burn step, and using two pass vbr etc. I'm very much a novice in that department.
I was interested in your comment about burning at 8x, as when I use the dvd burner it seems to set it's own speed. While using the Philips 16x I could see speeds up to 18x (??) so how do you restrict the speed to just 8x at this stage, or is just that you use an 8x dvd so it is restricted in that way. I don't see a setting at the burn stage to over-ride anything in the system.

I will be archiving onto TY discs (just put in an order for 100) and also via the ISO files, hence my earlier posting. I will keep these together on an external hard drive and will also give each of my daughters a copy of their respective .iso files from which they can burn new discs should the originals begin to break up/pixilate.

I tend to use -Rs as I have a Panasonic dvd recorder plugged into the TV and that prefers the -R format.

When I mentioned the file size of 4.19gb, yes that was overall including titles, chapters, music and motion etc. Those original mpegs (which I had saved) were around 4gb although following advice from you and Trevor I have now re-mastered them (from 6800VBR to 6300VBR) and brought the size down to around 3.80gb, so the finished file comes out at around 4 - 4.05gb (with only 16 seconds of chapter motion rather that 30) and does not run into the yellow on the 'create dvd' facility.

I feel I've cracked the problem now and am going to re-master a couple of older DVDs including one I made from old cine film taken of my daughters over 30 years ago. That's family history for you!!

Would just like to get that onto an ISO for posterity and I'll be very happy.

I've really appreciated all the help you guys have given me, it's been a great learning curve.

Cheers
Mark

[markpritch]

Just read that VMA article.
Very interesting. Sound like we all need something akin to a wine cellar to store all these bits. At least I've still got my original cine fim!!

All the best
Mark

[2Dogs]

Hi Mark,

glad you seem to have everything pretty well sorted now.

As for selecting the burn speed - you should be able to easily do that in any program you use. for example, if you were using the "Create Disc" step in CD-DVD Speed, there's a box on the right hand side, part of the "Settings" info, where you can select your burn speed.

If you use CD-DVD Speed to burn the disc, it will have the advantage of always showing the graph of the burn strategy used, as well as the DVD burner model and firmware revision used, even if you don't use or have access to any of the write quality testing tools.

If you did enable the Pioneer write quality optimiser, though, I'm surprised it's still writing at up to 18x to any disc - I would have expected to see a very jagged line of write speed, with the disc burn time extended to about 10 minutes, equivalent to a burn rate of maybe 6x.

As for archive backups - it sounds like you are taking all sensible precautions. I wish I could back up my wallet as easily as I can my data!

[markpritch]

Haha!! 2 Dogs
I quite agree, would be nice.

Thanks for the tips. I'm going to try to 'remaster' my dvd from the old cine films tomorrow so will look out for the speed options.
Yes, I did use the programe to optimise the burning speed for the 116D and was equally surprised to see that speed being quoted on ProX2.
I would not have thought it possible to write at a speed greater than the disc indicates.
Maybe I had had one too many at lunchtime!!

It's 11pm, another day over.
Thanks again and good night all.
Cheers
Mark