How to encode interlaced mpeg video?

citizenpb · Post by **citizenpb** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 7:16 pm

Most of my work with Videostudio involves editing TV footage recorded on my HDD recorder to make my own DVDs (mainly music, sports events, that kind of thing). The videos I am editing are interlaced. If at all possible I use Smartrender and therefore no re-encoding occurs and the final video is also interlaced, so I am happy with how the DVDs appears on my TV. However, sometimes I need to re-encode the video (maybe I have two sources at different bit rates, or I want to compress the footage) but it seems I cannot get interlaced video when I do this and I'm not satisfied with the quality on my TV (even allowing for the loss of quality that occurs with re-encoding). The re-encoded video always appears to be de-interlaced, no matter what settings I use for field order.

Firstly, can anyone tell me whether it is possible for Videostudio to encode interlaced mpeg video? If not then no further advice is needed, but if so then can anyone please help me to achieve this? (and if it is possible then I can provide further details about video formats and system specs if needed).

I am using Videostudio 11.5 Plus - specifically "11.5.0157.1 Plus"

sjj1805 · Post by **sjj1805** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 12:29 am

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citizenpb · Post by **citizenpb** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:08 pm

Sorry, I should have provided more info. Hope this helps...

Describe your problem:

I want to edit my interlaced MPEG video and produce an interlaced MPEG video file at a lower bit rate. When attempting to re-encode the interlaced MPEG video the final video is not interlaced. It does not exhibit the horizontal lines that are apparent in interlaced video when viewed using VLC player, which normally are particularly obvious when the video is paused. It also doesn't appear to be interlaced when viewed on TV.

If I use Smartrender, i.e. no re-encoding, then the final video is interlaced, but this does not help me if I want to re-encode the video, to a lower bit rate for example.

I'd like to know if it's possible for VS to produce an interlaced MPEG file when re-encoding and if so what am I doing wrong?

What devices are involved and their mode of connection?:

A HDD recorder with built-in Freeview and my PC. Video copied via DVD.

The Version of program is being used e.g. VS11+ VS11.5+ VSX2

VS11.5+ (11.5.0157.1 Plus)

Please list all patches/updates that have been installed relating to that version of the program.

None

Details of the source files.

Video Type: MPEG-2 Upper Field First
Attributes: 24 bits, 720*576, 4:3
Frame Rate: 25 fps
Data Rate: VBR 8182 kbps max

Audio Type: LPCM Audio
Attributes: 48 kHz, 16 bit, Stereo

Where did they originate (camcorder, internet, TV card etc)

From Freeview digital TV, recorded to a HDD recorder.

How did they get onto your hard drive (download, firewire, USB cable etc.)

Copied from HDD to DVD and then to hard drive of PC via Videostudio's "Import DVD" function.

Project Settings

PAL DVD
VBR 8182 kbps max
25 fps
Upper Field First
720*576
4:3
LPCM Audio

Did this error occur at the SHARE - Create Video Step
OR have you gone directly to the SHARE - Create Disc Step

At Create Video step

Error Codes (if any):

None

skier-hughes · Post by **skier-hughes** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 11:22 am

I can't see why your files aren't interlaced when you are finished.
What are the settings you choose when you make the final video?
Same as project should give you an interlaced video.

What make of hdd recorder do you use, as most I've worked with don't produce std 720x576 video.

Trevor Andrew · Post by **Trevor Andrew** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 2:36 pm

Hi
From a clip in the timeline or library:- You should be able to view the properties of the video file by ¡¥Right Click¡¦ and select ¡¥Properties¡¦ This should show the field order. If it shows ¡¥frame based¡¦ then its not interlaced.

and
If you tick ¡¥Show Messages when............................. from File Preferences

Start a new project,
When you insert a compatible video an info window will allow you to view the properties. Select ¡¥Details¡¦.
View the right panel for video properties.
Select yes/ok and your project properties will be changed to match.
(only works for the first video inserted, so you have to start a new project)

If
When you Share Create Video File you select Same as First Video, the properties of the original video will be used to render.

citizenpb · Post by **citizenpb** » Sat Feb 28, 2009 1:39 pm

Graham and Trevor... thanks for your replies. They don't really solve my problem unfortunately as my problem is creating video using the "Custom" video method - basically keeping all properties the same as the original video and only changing the video bit rate, this is when I fail to get interlaced video.

I remembered I had created some DVDs using VS8 on a different PC some time ago. This week I dug them out and discovered that these were indeed interlaced, and I know that they had been re-encoded. At the time I created those DVDs I didn't even notice as I wasn't aware of interlacing - the videos looked good on my TV and so I was happy. When I first started using VS11.5 on a new PC I noticed the videos I was creating didnt look so good when played back on TV and now that I know a bit more about video editing (much of it from these and similar forums) I've worked out it is because the video is not interlaced.

I started to wonder is the problem with VS11.5 or my new PC and so this week I uninstalled VS11.5 and reinstalled VS8 on my new PC and tried re-encoding the same videos in the same way that gave me problems with VS11.5 and again found that the re-encoded video IS INTERLACED! So now I am sure that the problem is not simply my PC or my source video or my project settings but is at least partly the fault of VS11.5, maybe in combination with some property of my new PC.

Can anyone please confirm they are able to re-encode an interlaced mpeg video at a lower bit rate using the "Custom" method and produce an interlaced mpeg video with VS11.5? If they can then I can maybe start to investigate what it is about my PC that is stopping me from doing the same. If they can't then I can file a bug report (I assume that's possible).

I guess I could use other software for just re-encoding but if I'm adding effects or editing many files together then I really need to do it all in VS and would rather not go back to using VS8.

btw, yes the videos from my HDD are 720*576, and it's a Panasonic EX78.

Post by **Ron P.** » Sat Feb 28, 2009 2:12 pm

So what you're saying is that even though you choose Upper Field First as your setting, VS does not encode the video as UFF, but rather Frame based? Frame based is non-interlaced, the other 2 options UFF and LFF are...

You are aware the burn module (Share>Create Disc), has it's own Preferences and Project Settings? Clicking the Gear-looking icon will open the Project settings dialog for the burn module. Check to make sure that UFF is being used and not Frame Based.

skier-hughes · Post by **skier-hughes** » Sat Feb 28, 2009 2:12 pm

can you list the properties f your finished file and also the settings you choose in your custom profile for producing this file.

My father uses VS11+ and often changes the bitrate settings, but never gets a non-interlaced file from an interlaced video input.

Trevor Andrew · Post by **Trevor Andrew** » Sat Feb 28, 2009 2:39 pm

Hi citizenpb

By using the Tool--Make Movie Manager you can create your own template.
Use the ¡¥Add¡¦ function, give it a name, browsing your hard drive for your original video file.
This will create a template to your original video properties.

Now ¡¥edit¡¦ the template changing the bit rate only.
View the template settings look at the 'frame type' under the ¡¥General¡¦ tab, what does it show?

The template will show in Share Create Video File window, adjacent to the Custom option.

citizenpb · Post by **citizenpb** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 12:03 am

Many thanks for all the advice posted. Unfortunately I have already checked and re-checked all the various settings suggested to ensure I am telling VS to produce interlaced video, but without success. All your advice is perfectly rational but it seems VS11.5 is not behaving rationally, causing me much frustration.

To further complicate things - the videos I have been rendering have been specified as "Upper-Field First" and when I import the rendered video back into VS and look at the properties it tells me that it is "Upper-Field First". When I check the properties in GSpot it also tells me the video is Interlaced with Top Field First. BUT when viewed on my TV (an old CRT type, not an LCD) and even more obviously when viewed in VLC player they are clearly not interlaced.

Now you're probably thinking I'm making this up, it sounds improbable I agree, but I have created some samples to demonstrate. I have rendered identical segments of the same source video, with the same project properties, firstly in VS8 and then in VS11.5. The rendered videos have identical properties when imported back into VS (although interestingly slightly different file sizes) but one looks interlaced and the other doesn't. I have uploaded them to sendspace - I'd be very grateful if anyone could please look at them (they are only about 3MB each) and confirm to me that to the naked eye the VS8 sample is interlaced whilst the VS11.5 one is not, despite what VS says about the properties of each, just to prove that I am not going crazy.

VS8: http://www.sendspace.com/file/5tsork
VS11.5 : http://www.sendspace.com/file/762xnt

The source file properties are:

MPEG-2 Upper-Field First
24 bits, 720*576, 4:3
25 fps
VBR 9200 kbps

MPEG Audio Layer 2
48 kHz, 16 bit, Stereo
224 kbps

The rendered file properties are the same except for video bit rate which is 4600 kbps.

This is looking more and more like a bug to me and the only solution is to report it to Corel.

Post by **Ron P.** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 4:15 am

I don't know where or what you're seeing that makes you think that they are not interlaced. I've downloaded both clips, viewed them in several players, including VLC. I can not see any difference in them. By every means that I have available, I've checked the properties, and they always are reported to be UFF, which is interlaced video.

Maybe I'm missing something. Could you please be real specific on how you are determining that they or at least the one produced by VS11 is not interlaced?

I've loaded both into VS8, through VS Pro X2, as well as Media Player Classic, VLC, WMP, WinDVD, and even MSP8. All editing applications report both being UFF. In any and all players the picture is identical.

BTW, I don't use VLC, but downloaded and installed just so I could check your clips. I'm not real impressed with VLC, it doesn't provide any information such as clip properties, even though it is suppose to. I tried loading several of my own in VLC, and it would not provide much of any property information on them. I'm certainly not going to keep it installed...

VS 11+ Clip in WinDVD 9+

VS8 Clip in WinDVD 9+

Click on images to enlarge

citizenpb · Post by **citizenpb** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:59 pm

Ron, thanks for looking at my samples, I appreciate your help. I agree that the video properties always indicate that both are interlaced UFF. However, when I have been viewing them in VLC or Media Player Classic the VS11.5 does not appear to be interlaced, and by that I mean the horizontal lines that can be seen when viewed on a progressive monitor, especially when paused, are not present as they are in the VS8 video.

But your reply made me look a bit deeper - I checked the MPEG decoder settings in MPC (Filters > MPEG-2 Video Decoder > Deinterlacing). I was using "Weave" and this was giving me an interlaced output for the VS8 sample but not for the VS11.5 sample. Same occurs in WinDVD - "Weave" gives interlaced for VS8 but not VS11.5. When I changed the MPC setting to "Field Shift" I got interlaced video for both samples. So I guess that confirms the VS11.5 video is actually interlaced. However, I cannot achieve interlaced video in VLC, whatever settings I use. Nor in WinDVD. Most importantly, the VS11.5 video does not look interlaced on my TV, it is slightly blurred compared to the VS8 video.

As one final check, just to confirm I'm not mad, could you possibly please check the VS11.5 video in MPC using "Weave" as the deinterlacing setting?

So my conclusion is that yes, VS11.5 is producing interlaced video, but somehow it is not quite the same as that produced by VS8. And that the DVD player I am using to play the DVDs created from videos rendered in VS11.5 is not recognising it as interlaced. This is the critical issue as I'm creating DVDs to watch on TV, not in MPC.

Thanks to everyone for your replies, if anyone can shed any more light on this I'd be grateful, otherwise I suppose the next step is to report this to Corel, see what they say, because there is definitely something "different" about the VS11.5 rendered video.

Post by **Ken Berry** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 1:08 am

This is not meant to be a criticism, but from memory, you are the first and only person to report this particular problem. I would therefore have to wish you luck in reporting it to Corel (though you would probably need that, as everyone does, regardless of the problem!

) And they might only be willing to do something if they can replicate the problem -- which, depending on Ron carrying out your latest request, may not prove possible. As you may know, a 'bug' is only a bug if it happens frequently and can be replicated.

maxblack · Post by **maxblack** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 4:15 am

citizenpb wrote:So my conclusion is that yes, VS11.5 is producing interlaced video, but somehow it is not quite the same as that produced by VS8.

Both samples you gave are indeed interlaced TFF, but the vs115 sample somehow has duplicated the first field into the second!!!!?!! So you are actually missing, in the vs115 sample, half the motion in the clip! I have no idea how this happened, but I determined this by indexed each clip with DGindex (neuron2.net) and inspecting each field using an Avisynth script and Virtual dub thusly:

MPEG2Source("vs115_test.d2v")
assumetff()
separatefields()

Each clip has 126 frames, and 252 fields but only the vs8 clip shows motion in every field--the vs115 clip shows the 2nd field of each frame as identical to the first. Here btw is the DGindex log, which is identical for both clips:

Stream Type: MPEG2 Program
Profile: main@main
Frame Size: 720x576
Display Size: 720x576
Aspect Ratio: 4:3 [2]
Frame Rate: 25.000000 fps
Video Type: PAL
Frame Type: Interlaced
Coding Type: B
Colorimetry: BT.470-2 B,G
Frame Structure: Frame
Field Order:
Coded Number: 126
Playback Number: 2
Frame Repeats: 0
Field Repeats: 0
VOB ID: 1
Cell ID: 1
Bitrate:
Bitrate (Avg):
Bitrate (Max):
Audio Stream: c0: MPA L2 2ch 48 224
Timestamp: 0:00:04
Elapsed: 0:00:00
Remain: FINISH

I am a MF6+ owner, and a brand-new VS Pro X2 owner who hasn't even installed it yet, just looking-around here at posts. So I can't help (with VS) except to say that you are not crazy, you are somehow getting very different output from VS11.5 vs the VS8!

P.S. I should add that inspecting the clips side-by-side and field-by-field, along with the fact that the vs8 clip shows the 2nd field as "new motion" vs. the vs115 in which the 2nd field is identical to the 1st field, the vs8 clip appears sharper, causing me to wonder if the vs115 clip has been created by combining fields somehow on decode. I didn't read every word of the above posts, but maybe as vs115 is decoding the original video differently. Can you upload the original source somewhere?

maxblack · Post by **maxblack** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 4:47 am

Here's a side-by-side compare of field 105 (2nd field paired with 104) which shows that with vs8 (bottom pic, oops I cut the VirtualDub 1.9.6 - [vs8.avs] header off! Sorry!) the guitarist in the background has cleared the fretboard, while in vs115 his hand is still lower, and as I've said is identical to 104.

You'd think it would be easier to see the field differences, given all the frenetic action that is going-on, but this is one of the clearer examples I could find to show.

I guess I'm not surprised that it's hard to see on normal playback, though clearly (to me) the vs8 clip is smoother than the vs115 (not surprising given all the missing info!).

Sorry the image is not cropped very well--it's late here & I'm dog-tired!