Help with choice of video cameras for use with VideoStudio

geordieboi · Post by **geordieboi** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 7:15 pm

Hi folks,

Having sought the help of a professional photographer friend, I've now managed to make massive improvements with the lighting techniques for the green screen - two examples shown below from a stills camera :

The couple of minor creases and shadows aside (I'm not worried about those as the test was quite rushed and they can be dealt with later) I'm quite happy with the lighting for the shots.

However, the video camera we're using is about 5 years old and unfortunately it would appear not up to scratch. It's a Canon MV 600 and is only capable of 720x576 size footage at what I understand is around 0.8 megapixel sort of quality.

When I'm dropping the video into VS, the quality of the "presenter" footage is nothing short of abysmal. The footage starts to pixellate, the colours are horrendous, the clothing seems to be a light grey instead of black, and the image is absolutely nothing like the stills camera quality from the photographer who helped me.

Unfortunately, we're on an extremely tight budget - we're talking close to zilch in fact - so any new camera is going to have to be bought as and when we can save up the funds to buy one.

I'd be very grateful if anyone could give me some help with what specifically I'm looking for in the spec of cameras to be able to produce a much higher quality recording than the old camera I'm using now. I wouldn't have a clue what to begin looking for among the thousands of cameras out there when it comes to the technical specs of them. I'm assuming the megapixels side of things is important but that's about as much as I know.

Thanks in advance for any pointers - and apologies for the lack of knowledge...

2Dogs · Post by **2Dogs** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:23 pm

Why aye man!

(assuming you are a Geordie!)

What exactly are you trying to achieve?

Are you looking to make a standard definition DVD using still footage, in the form of a slideshow, or higher resolution, to Blu-Ray or for playback on a pc or thru a projector?

Post by **Ken Berry** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 10:03 pm

Your camera (Canon MV600) is in fact a good quality one (I have the MV630) -- it films in 16:9 mini DV format which, for standard definition, is the best quality format for editing. The megapixels side of things is largely irrelevant when you are talking about video -- it is only relevant to the quality of still images taken by the camera. And I will grant you that the camera you have, like mine, does not take good quality stills. But then again, I would not expect it to. I have much better quality digital still cameras for that.

So the question arises what video format you might be capturing in and what settings you are using for your project. You should be capturing in DV format and using that throughout your project, and only converting when all editing is done to the final format you are after.

As for a new camera, if you are talking about moving into high definition, I personally like Canon cameras, but that is solely a matter of personal preference. For ease of editing high definition, at the moment I would most definitely and strongly have to recommend the HDV format (which uses the same mini DV tapes as your current camera). VS from version 10+ onwards can handle it without trouble, and and half decent computer will do. On the other hand, there are any number of headaches if you choose to move to AVCHD format, and you need at least a good Core 2 Duo or Quad, with heaps of resources, the be able and edit and even play it smoothly. Not to mention many verified bugs in the editing process itself.

geordieboi · Post by **geordieboi** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:39 pm

2Dogs - wey aye, am a Geordie. Ya alreeeeet?!

Thanks both for your replies. Just shows how little I know, doesn't it !

In terms of what I'm trying to achieve, I should have probably said that from the outset! My plan is to produce a weekly(ish) 5 minute news programme for our website. It will be produced in VS (ie presenter in virtual studio with video footage overlays) and then finally converted to FLV format to run on our website's video player. There won't be any need for putting onto DVD or disc etc - it's purely for web playback.

Ken - it's interesting to read your comments about the camera. Straight away I've spotted one problem in that I've been capturing into VS using MPEG instead of DV. I will recapture that this afternoon using DV format and see if I can spot any improvement in quality.

Unfortunately I'm not sure at all with the camera settings themselves - I have no idea what they should be set at so again any help would be appreciated. There are so many settings in the camera, obviously if you have a similar model that would be half the battle sorted !

Thanks again to you both so far.

Post by **Ken Berry** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 1:59 pm

That's one of the particular beauties of DV format -- in effect there *are* no settings you have to worry about. Well, just one -- choosing whether you capture in DV Type 1 or Type2. VS seems to work better with Type 1, though I use Type 2 all the time with no problems... And the difference between the two is not that important -- Type 1 uses just one stream, which has both video and audio signal channels in it. Type 2 uses two separate streams -- one for the video channel and one for the audio channel. Top end editors seem to prefer the latter, and some programs, like Adobe Premiere Pro, seems only to use Type 2. But VS can use both.

And I am assuming you are capturing with Firewire, which is the only way of capturing high quality DV.

But once you choose one or the other, there is nothing else to set. You capture in it, and VS will capture DV in its single, high quality setting. As I said above, you then do your edits in the DV stream, and then you choose which format you want for your website and convert it to that...

2Dogs · Post by **2Dogs** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 3:35 pm

It sounds to me like you should be fine with a standard definition camcorder, such as the one you already have.

The picture quality will depend on the lighting more than anything else. All camcorders will give better images in decent lighting, and will generate noise if there's not enough light. If you're shooting indoors, you might invest in a couple of lights, which at their most basic might comprise a video light bulb in a worklight, and some sort of diffuser - white paper or fabric.

In that situation, the one control you need to get a good understanding of is the white balance. It will be well worth reading the camcorder manual from cover to cover.

Unless you deliberately want an MTV look, you should also use a tripod - if possible, one with a fluid head that will enable very smooth panning.

Good luck!

geordieboi · Post by **geordieboi** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:16 pm

Thanks again to you both for the suggestions.

Ken - I've recaptured as DV format (VS picked up the Canon as DV Type2 anyway so I just ran with that) and working on some examples now. Not looking great but we'll see how it comes out.

2Dogs - the lighting has been the big problem from the start - hence I've asked a pro photographer friend of mine to help with it. We went to a large room he uses as a studio yesterday to play around with lighting - and we tried various ways with various different lighting kits - professional lighting kits I might add.

White balance was something we stupidly didn't even think about to begin with, but will obviously make a point of checking that in future.

Anyway, the setup was the green screen hanging from the stands - me about 5 or 6 ft in front of that - the camera about 6 ft in front of me.

The first "take" we ran with two large lights - positioned between me and the camera - at either side. They lit up me and the green screen at the same time. In VS, my face appears to be a blob of white with two eyes, my black suit jacket shows up fine, but there is a lot of spill around me when I chromakey it out. Unfortunately I can't find any spill supression type things in VS to try and ease that away.

The second "take" we had the screen itself lit by two large lights - positioned between the screen and me - at either side. I was then lit by two further lights between the camera and me, at either side. In VS, my face is better lit, there's less spill when chromakeying, but the black jacket appears to go transparent in places.

I'll try and put together some clips over the next day or so and upload so you can see. Maybe that will help spot any glaring errors that are looking me in the face !!

2Dogs · Post by **2Dogs** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:35 pm

geordieboi wrote:I was then lit by two further lights between the camera and me, at either side. In VS, my face is better lit, there's less spill when chromakeying, but the black jacket appears to go transparent in places

One major difference betwen a consumer camcorder and a pro one is the way they can handle highlights. The consumer unit will show much more highlight clipping, where it simply cannot reproduce the range of contrast in a bright scene.

You should experiment with getting the lighting diffuse - either thru diffusers, or by bouncing it off white screens or even the ceiling or walls. Your face should not then be "burned out", and there will be less glare on the green screen.

Black Lab · Post by **Black Lab** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 7:34 pm

Take a look at these Videomaker Magazine articles:

The Keys to Chromakey
Applying 3-Point Lighting

Post by **Ken Berry** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 8:54 pm

And try changing the DV Encoder to Type 1 -- VS seems to work better with that one, though Type 2 is set as a default. (Options icon on the Capture screen.)

geordieboi · Post by **geordieboi** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 9:45 pm

Hi folks - thanks again for your pointers so far.

Ken, have tried DV1 and DV2 capture - neither have improved the quality that much. I'm wondering if I've not had the settings correct on the camera in the first place. Unfortunately I'm not able to get back to the "studio" for the moment to try other settings.

I know the white balance was probably wrong - as I said earlier, that's something I know for future to look at beforehand.

Blacklab - thanks for those two links - both interesting and relatively helpful, have passed them onto my pro photographer friend who's helping me as the lighting one will make more sense to him.

Back on the subject of a better quality camera... I appreciate what Ken said earlier about the Canon MV600 being a decent enough camera, however the quality of what I'm seeing in the finished product is - to put it mildly - poor. The project I'm working on will be the first of it's kind in the field where I'm working, and I've already decided that if it's going to look naff, I'm not going to do it yet. I'd rather put it off, try and afford some decent equipment, and then do it at a later stage properly.

However - just flicking through a few clips on YouTube about cameras and I've found this "3CCD" mentioned a few times. Again excusing my ignorance, I understand this is something to do with the way newer cameras see the colours and lighting? Would a 3CCD camera produce better quality recordings for chromakeying in post production?

Ken, 2Dogs, Blacklab - I've sent you each a private message with a link to the video I've done so far. If you have the time to have a quick look, you'll see the problem I'm having with the quality of the "presenter" footage (ie me). You'll see how the jacket becomes transparent in places and the green spill around me. I've sent the link privately simply because in this particular sport where I'm working, if anyone else finds it, they'll copy the idea and rush it out before I do !!!

Thanks folks - you're a big help so far.

Post by **Ken Berry** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 10:24 pm

I have looked at your video and see what the problem is. (Otherwise, the execution is quite impressive!) But I am not the person who can help on green screen issues as it is not something I use very much myself -- and never with people, in any case; just titles.

As for your poor quality DV, I am also mystified -- unless the heads on your camera need a clean (or there is some other physical problem), DV is normally the very best quality you can get out of a standard definition video camera. A 3CCD model, might give you slightly better light spread with your filmed image, it would only be slight and not the sort of thing which would correct the sort of severe degradation of image you seem to be describing.

Black Lab · Post by **Black Lab** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 10:29 pm

I think your problem can be solved with proper lighting.

2Dogs · Post by **2Dogs** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 12:29 am

The video on the site is Flash - so I wonder if the quality loss is in the encoding to FLV.

VS X2 appears to have only one option, at 320 x 240 for the "YouTube Share Video Online" setting, but there are also 640x480 and 512x384 options in the "Create video File > FLV".

Have you tried all those? There seem to be no settings you can vary in each of the three choices.

If you output your VS project to DV avi, is the picture quality good?

Post by **Ron P.** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 12:52 am

VS X2 appears to have only one option, at 320 x 240 for the "YouTube Share Video Online" setting, but there are also 640x480 and 512x384 options in the "Create video File > FLV".

There's more than those if you go the route of Share>Create Video File>Custom. You can select FLV from the drop-down in the Save as Type dialog window. Then press the Options button, go to the General tab, and for Frame Size you have from 40x30 up to 800x600.