Compatible camcorders

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Compatible camcorders

Post by Vicki »

Hi all-
I am looking into getting a new camcorder as a gift for husband this year. What recommendations would you have as it is important that it would work well with Video Studio X2 Pro.

Right now we have a 6-year old Sony Handycam D8 DCR-TRV350. The DV .avi imports and edits nicely into the timeline, however the camera is heavy and bulky. And it does not handle indoor lighting well.

My hopeful price range is up to about $500..... are there any good camcorders out there that you guys would recommend?

Thanks for your input... 'preciate it!
Vicki

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HV30?

Post by 2Dogs »

Hi Vicki,

here's my three pennies worth!

Not many people have many camcorders to directly compare, so their views tend to be subjective.

Here's a link to a review site which you should find useful.

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/ratings.php

The highest ranked standard def camcorder is a JVC, at #25 in their rankings, and with the best "street" price coming in under your $500 budget.

Note that there are some high def camcorders which can also be had for under $500, but there are a couple of major problems with those.

First of all, you need a very powerful pc, preferably a quad core, to edit the video, and secondly, there are as yet no commonly available consumer video editing programs that can handle the footage without problems.

Not only that, but even if you can edit the video, it's presently uneconomic to produce a blu-ray disc from your project, so you have limited options as to what to do with your projects. Blu Ray burners still cost too much for most people, and the blank discs go for silly prices too. I'd hate to be making Blu Ray coasters...!

With standard definition, it's pretty simple - you can make up DVD's that you can pass on to family and friends.

Amongst the standard def camcorders, if you don't choose a Mini-DV model, they will record to mpeg2, either onto a hard drive or a Mini DVD disc. I would recommend strongly against buying a Mini DVD camcorder, however. At the high quality setting, you can only record 15 or 20 minutes of footage to a disc.

The hard drive camcorders are more compact, and they have the benefit of allowing you to transfer video to your pc faster than real time, in contrast to any tape-based camcorders. All non-Mini-DV camcorders record to a compressed format, however, which is less easily edited than Mini-DV.

There may also be a few flash memory standard definition camcorders, and they will be the smallest units available. Suitable high capacity flash memory cards are now pretty affordable, and certainly more convenient than tapes, and possibly more so than hard drives even.

You should read a few reviews to see which model does best in poor light - there are big differences between models from different manufacturers in that respect, and all the reviews on camcorderinfo.com show screen shots when used in low light which are very useful for comparative purposes.

To be honest, in your position I might consider a Canon HV30. It's a little above your budget, but you might see a good offer on one. It is a high definition camcorder that records in the HDV format, recording to a Mini-DV tape. That's the main drawback - you still have a tape based camcorder. But on the up side, you can re-use your old Mini-DV tapes if you like, if they're good quality, though many people never over-write their Mini-DV tapes and use them as an archive.

Although compared with the hard drive and flash memory HD camcorders the HV30 is large, compared with earlier generations of Mini-DV camcorders, and your TRV350, it will probably seem quite small. It's a popular model so you should be able to go down to your local big box store and play around with one, and compare it to the other camcorders while you're at it.

The great thing about the HV30 is that your existing pc will be fast enough to edit the HDV footage - but you even have an option to shoot in standard definition Mini-DV format too. Video Studio has no problems editing HDV either.

With HDV, you still have the problem of how to distribute your high def projects. Your options include keeping your output on a hard drive for playback on your pc or thru to an HDTV, or burning a "hybrid" HD disc onto a standard DVD blank disc for playback in a suitable Blu-Ray player or a Sony Playstation 3 hooked up to your HDTV. The PS3 happens to be a very versatile playback device, as well as a very nice boy-toy!

The HV30 also just happens to still top the camcorderinfo.com rankings, despite the introduction of lots of newer AVCHD camcorders. Bear in mind also that camcorderinfo.com doesn't really give much weight to the "editability" of video in their reviews, so if that's an important factor for you, you might rank it even further above the other camcorders.

The HV30 has very good low light performance too.

I think when you get a replacement for your trusty old TRV350, if you get a standard def camcorder it might be noticeably smaller, and perhaps have slightly better low light performance, but the image quality will probably be much the same as the TRV350. By contrast, the HDV footage from the HV30 will look fantastic. If that's a recent snap of your little girl, I would go for the HV30 just to make sure you get the best footage of her growing up. I'd shoot in HDV, archive all the tapes, and maybe produce some standard def DVD's from the footage for current distribution to family and friends but also having options to make up high def projects too. Best of both worlds really.

If you did buy the HV30, you might have to be prepared to see less of your husband! It has so many features that he might lose himself in it....
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Post by lancecarr »

Just my two cents worth as well.
I think 2dogs really has summed it all up for you pretty well there!

I too look to camcorderinfo.com for info on the latest and greatest. Like all review sites as much as they try to be fair they also cannot help but be influenced by their own personal preferences. This is what I would do.

First work out whether it is time to go up to HiDef or stay with Standard def. If you are staying with standard def then fine, if it is time for HiDef then pay heed to 2Dogs advice regarding formats that can be "comfortably" edited.

Having worked out the format go to the "Camcorder Ratings" page and check out the top 5 or so that are in your price range and format. Make a list and don't worry if your choices are a little down on the list because they have some very top end camcorders on there which push some of the standard def ones down the list.

Now, go to the actual review of each camcorder and DON'T read the review! Click on the page that shows "Specs and Ratings." Scroll down to the "ratings" section. You will see a bunch of scores there which are arbitrary values assigned to each attribute. Some are worked out by technical tests and some are worked out by their best guess/opinion.

Go through all the points and choose only the ones that you feel are important to you. E.g. If I am buying a camcorder predominantly because I have kids that I want to get footage of as they grow up then realistically I need a camcorder with excellent auto features. I am not going to have time to manually set up the cam's exposure etc to get shots. I just need to turn it on and be able to shoot at the drop of a hat.

If a camcorder gets a low score for inadequate manual controls then that has nothing to do with what I specifically want. I would never use them so that attribute would be struck off the list as irrelevant to me.

Remember the guys that write the reviews are VERY in to camcorders and although they try hard, sometimes a little professional arrogance creeps in!

So, go through the list of points and note down the scores for each point for each of the five cams that you feel are important to you.

Add up the scores and you "should" have your choice.

Just to be sure then go back to the review of the cam that got your top score and read through the review for any "deal breakers." Any point that you simply couldn't live with despite the cam being the top scorer. If all is well then you have your cam. If not read the review of number two and so on until you find one you are happy with.

Hope this helps.
Good Luck!
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Post by Vicki »

Thank you both for the excellent and thorough advice. I will check out the website and try out that HV30 too.

If I record in HD, do I import and edit it in HD using the proxy settings, even to burn standard DVD's? Is it possible to dump the hard drive to an archival DVD for storage?

Our big screen TV is about 10 years old, but is not HD and with this economy, we will probably not be replacing it anytime soon unless it fails.

Thanks again... you guys are great!
Vicki

PS: Child is 5 years old, so plenty of videotaping ahead of us! Husband works the camcorder; I take the stills/clips with the digital camera and put it all together.
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Post by Ken Berry »

If you have no intention of moving to a HDTV soon and only intend producing standard definition DVDs, I would probably counsel against buying a HD camera at this stage -- much as I think they are brilliant. (I have the predecessor of the HV30 -- a HV20 -- and love it...)

If you do, however, buy a HD camera, I personally would agree that a HDV format one is far easier to edit than an AVCHD one, and very much so with your computer, which would not be able play native AVCHD at all, ever, period; and it could only edit it using SmartProxy, though that might also be just above your specs too (normally you require at least a Pentium 4 3.0 GHz with hyperthreading for SmartProxy, and yours is just below this). But with HDV cameras, at least, you can set them to either film in Standard Definition DV format, or else you film in HDV format and can set it to download as either HDV or DV.

My major reason to suggest not moving to a high def camera if you only intend to produce standard def DVDs, apart from the unnecessary extra cost this would entail, is that high def cameras (both HDV and AVCHD) have a bad shimmer if you pan horizontally even a little too fast. It is a well known phenomenon with HD video, and you soon get into a mode of avoiding fast horizontal pans. But if you do pan, the shimmer appears strongly, and also gets translated into any DV download of the video. You don't get that with a standard def DV camera.
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Standard def for now...but HD later

Post by 2Dogs »

Ken Berry wrote:If you have no intention of moving to a HDTV soon and only intend producing standard definition DVDs, I would probably counsel against buying a HD camera at this stage -- much as I think they are brilliant. (I have the predecessor of the HV30 -- a HV20 -- and love it...)
But then if Vicki's husband is shooting HDV footage of their baby girl for Vicki to edit, the HDV source footage can be output to standard definition for a regular DVD. So long as the Mini-DV tapes are archived and not overwritten, or the captured HDV is stored on a hard drive, the same project could be set to output to HDV or AVCHD at some point in the future, when there is an HDTV or other device to play it on.

@Vicki - both the HV20 and HV30 record onto Mini-DV tape, so you can archive footage on the tapes or transfer it to a hard drive on your pc - or even burn it to DVD's. There is some uncertainty as to how long DVD's remain playable, however, so I would not recommend using DVD's as the only backup method.

Ken, would you say that your HV20 HDV footage converted to standard def mpeg2 on a regular DVD is better quality than a DVD made from Mini-DV footage from your Digital8 camcorder?

Interestingly, the HV30 can be had for a pretty low price, certainly lower than the HV20 sold for at the time of its launch despite the HV30 having one or two more features.

Lance made some great points regarding what features are important to a particular user, and how to use those preferences to filter the review results. Now both the HV20 and HV30 are loaded with tons of features - but Ken, how would you rate the ease of use of your HV20 in auto mode, again compared to your old Digital8 camcorder?

Of course we would just love to see a Canon flash memory HDV camcorder, and it should be technically feasible - but alas it will never be made. :cry: :cry: :cry:
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Post by Ken Berry »

The standard def DVDs made from downconverted HDV from my HV20 are certainly better than from a mini DV -- though not by a huge degree. It is nevertheless noticeable on a large screen HDTV. But as I said above, you have to be careful with horizontal pans to minimize the shimmer.

I find the HV20 almost identical to use in auto mode as my Canon MV930i standard def one. The latter is a good deal smaller, but otherwise, they are both excellent and easy to use. The HV20 has an LCD light for low light situations, and I imagine the HV30 does as well. It's a handy extra.
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Post by Vicki »

Thanks to all for your input. I'll go check it out this weekend.
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Post by Vicki »

Last night I went to get the Canon ZR950 miniDV, $279, but it was out of stock and so hungry and tired, I traveled to store #2, where I was talked out of it in favor of a Sony DCR-SR85 HDD with a 60 GB hard drive. This one captures to mpeg-2 in single files......

So, did I make a big mistake? I like the idea of transferring files from a drive, but will I be sacrificing a lot of image quality and editability? I can still go back and get the other one.....

I was tempted to get the Canon HV30, but it really is over my budget.

Aaaargh....
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Post by 2Dogs »

I think you'll be pretty happy with your choice. Sony's have always had a strong reputation for being easy to use, and with it being a hard drive camcorder, transferring video to your pc will be more convenient, and much faster!

Happy holidays to you and yours!
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Post by Vicki »

It's just too bad we can't have the best of both worlds.... a hard drive that records .avi!

What do you think about editing with mpeg-2?..... is it worth the trade-off?

Thank you so much for your input ....and Happy holidays to you as well!
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Post by 2Dogs »

Vicki wrote:It's just too bad we can't have the best of both worlds.... a hard drive that records .avi!
That's one of my major gripes with camcorder manufacturers! We will never see a flash memory camcorder that records in DV avi format either.

Your new Sony can record mpeg2 video to its Memory Stick Duo Pro card, however, and if that's at the maximum quality setting of 9000kbps it might be a very convenient feature.
Vicki wrote:What do you think about editing with mpeg-2?..... is it worth the trade-off?
It's certainly very convenient. If you get your workflow right and maintain your source video properties, the only re-encoding is when you use titles, transitions and filters. So potentially you can render a project lickety split, even with your current Pentium D pc. I would shoot at the highest quality settings, and not allow the hard drive to fill up before backing up the material to your pc. It would be terrible if you dropped 60Gb of footage in a swimming pool, for example!

Be careful mixing clips from the new Sony in a project with the old one. The new one will use "upper field first" field order, whilst DV avi is "lower field first".

I trust you'll start to get new footage starting on 25th!
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Post by Vicki »

Be careful mixing clips from the new Sony in a project with the old one. The new one will use "upper field first" field order, whilst DV avi is "lower field first".
Aww geez..... I mix up clips from different sources, the avi and photos from my digital camera, plus some older clips from the current DV camcorder (especially if you are doing a milestone birthday video).

Looks like I should probably exchange it for the miniDV.... bye bye 60 GB hard drive, fast rendering and easy importing! So sad...
That's one of my major gripes with camcorder manufacturers! We will never see a flash memory camcorder that records in DV avi format either.
Send an email to Canon and Sony at their corporate websites.... hopefully they listen to their customers.
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Post by Black Lab »

Aww geez..... I mix up clips from different sources, the avi and photos from my digital camera, plus some older clips from the current DV camcorder (especially if you are doing a milestone birthday video).
I'd give it a try first. There was a thread not too long ago that talked about the mixing of fields and the resulting video looking fine. Maybe someone will remember which one that was.

EDIT - Found it! Read this thread: http://forum.corel.com/EN/viewtopic.php ... 7&start=30
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Post by 2Dogs »

Vicki wrote:Aww geez..... I mix up clips from different sources, the avi and photos from my digital camera, plus some older clips from the current DV camcorder (especially if you are doing a milestone birthday video
The avi from your digital camcorder will be frame-based, so it won't be a problem. Canon use an avi wrapper on their digicam video, and it's generally great quality and easy to edit! The photos won't pose any problems either, so the only compromise will be the DV avi from the old camcorder.
Vicki wrote:Looks like I should probably exchange it for the miniDV.... bye bye 60 GB hard drive, fast rendering and easy importing! So sad...
That's going to depend on how highly you rate the convenience of better than real-time "capture" of footage from the HDD camcorder compared to any Mini-DV camcorder, where of course you can only capture at real time.

There's no doubt that the Mini-DV format gives you the maximum flexibility in editing.

Just look at all the features that are important to you and go for what fits best in your budget.

I find online prices are significantly lower than prices at "brick and mortar" stores, though there are many bogus sellers online that lure unsuspecting customers in and trick them into paying high prices for unnecessary accessories and other "essential" items.

In fact, I've already "bought" an HV30 from one such seller for just $309, and resisted all their attempts to get me to buy a battery, charger, SD card and all sorts of other things for a ton of money. Though they haven't cancelled my order, I would be very surprised to see the camera delivered. They're still operating with a phoney web search site and now an even lower online price, and it makes me sad to think that for every hard-nosed **** like me, they'll probably get a few less determined buyers whom they'll be able to con. :evil: :evil: :evil:
Send an email to Canon and Sony at their corporate websites.... hopefully they listen to their customers.
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Unfortunately the manufacturers have to cater to the mass market, and with the difficult economic times right now, I'm not holding my breath for the introduction of a DV avi flash memory camcorder. I do live in hope, though. :lol: :lol:
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