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I am rendering my edited minidv projects to DVD-R and would like opinions on the best bitrate setting to preserve the highest quality.

Is there a real trade-off between maximum bitrate setting and DVD player compatibility ?

All my videos are of family occasions so I want to make sure the DVDs are the best quality for future viewing - I am not concerned about rendering time and do not need any more than one hour of video on a DVD - most of my projects are between 20 and 40 minutes long.

Reading the posts here there seems to be a difference of opinion of the best bitrate.

I have always opted for a bitrate of 8000Kbps with a CBR.
I am conscious of the fact that, even though I do not have a very high spec TV for viewing, that the DVDs will more than likely be viewed in the future on a bigger screen HD tv.

The question is if I render at less than 8000Kbps ,say 7000, will there be a noticeable quality loss when viewed on a bigger screen HD Tv which will be the standard playback format everywhere very soon.

However I have also read here that some DVD players cannot play back
DVD of 8000KBps.

So then there is not much point in rendering everything at the higher setting to future-proof the quality if it is hit and miss which players will play them.

Looking also at this forum a bitrate of 7500 seems to be popular.
Is this to safeguard against the above player compatibility issue or is 7500 picked as the video bitrate to allow for the addition of the audio bitrate so that the combination of video and audio does not exceed 8000KBps ?

So in summary I would like to hear opinions of the best bitrate that would result in the best possible quality on a big screen HD tv but which would also allow the DVD-+ R to be playable on most players.
(I am aware that the best quality would be on the original minidv files -I keep these also - but I think that the DVD format is more convenient for instant playback now and the future as blu-ray also supports their playback)

Thanks in advance.

However I have also read here that some DVD players cannot play back DVD of 8000KBps.

I don't know where you read that, but in my opinion, it is not correct. Others may, however, have different views. It is in fact 8000 kbps which is widely accepted as being the acceptable maximum video bitrate which can be played on just about any DVD player. The theoretical maximum bitrate under the international DVD standard is 10,000 kbps, but that is for both video and audio. That would mean, in theory, that you could have a max video bitrate of up to 9800 kbps, but anything much higher than 8000 kbps will cause difficulties on quite a few, though not necessarily all, players.

Now on the question of a large HDTV and how things will look, again based purely on my own personal experience and assessments, be prepared for a disappointment. I have always produced my own home-made DVDs using video originally filmed with a couple of Canon mini-DV cameras. I was always greatly impressed with the quality when I burned the DVDs consistently with a bitrate of 8000 kbps. These were played back on my 30 inch widescreen CRT TV and on those of family and friends which also tended to be similar or smaller CRT or relatively small flat screen TVs.

However, recently I upgraded to a 46 inch LCD HDTV. Frankly, while still basically looking OK, my DVDs now only look at best average. And I am playing them on a Sony PlayStation 3 which actually upscales the quality of standard def DVDs to make them look a little more like high def! One factor in my own assessment of my old DVDs' appearance on the HDTV, though, is that I had just bought my first high def video camera, and so bought the new TV precisely because of that. And I am afraid that the difference between the HD and SD video quality is like chalk and cheese on a HDTV. I am now almost embarrassed to look at my old DVDs...

But that being said, if I were you, I would still be burning my SD DVDs at 8000 kbps. I am not convinced though, that you would be seeing any noticeable deterioration in the quality if you used 7500 kbps or even 7000 kbps, though much below that would certainly show a visible difference in quality on a HDTV.

Firstly, have a look at http://forum.corel.com/EN/viewtopic.php ... 0e9c075132

Secondly, (sorry, Ken), it is true that bitrates of >7000 kbit/s on DVD¡ÓR/RW cannot be played on some players. This is because of poor contrast, especially with RW. My first DVD player (Grundig) would play nothing >~6500 on DVD-R not anything at all on -RW, although this was a few years ago. I have not found this on my Philips or LG, although I have had passing glitches on the Philips at high bitrates. The point is that pressed discs rely on optical diffraction between the 1s and 0s, whereas "burnt" discs use a difference of light absorption. The former gives a much higher contrast and is easier to read and interpret.

Also to be considered is the burning speed: this is of great importance. The slower the speed, the more well defined is the individual bit, which makes the player less likely to make a reading error. The rule of thumb for this is to never burn at a speed higher than half the rated speed, preferably lower still, especially for archival purposes. Another factor is that "burning" releases free radicals in the photosensitive layer and these tend to spread in time, causing the "burnt" bits to become larger.

There are no hard and fast rules, as there are too many variables, but for high quality assured reproduction on all players, it is better too keep the bitrates down to <7000 kbit/s. At 8000 kbit/s, you may have no problems with 90, 95 or 99% of players, depending on many factors, but you may have on the other 1, 5 or 10%. Why take the risk when the visual quality on a TV screen, viewed normally, is hardly perceptible?

Another factor that I forgot to mention is that the bitrates I mentioned are the combined video+audio. If you want to apply a limit of, say, 8000 kbit/s, and you are using an audio bitrate of about 1500 kbit/s, you should not use a video bitrate higher than about 6500 kbit/s. This is why I recommend using Dolby Digital at 192 kbit/s for your audio (2.0) or, if you are into 5.1, limit it to 480 kbit/s.

For longevity you also need to look at purchasing high quality dvds, no point in burning slowly with a decent bitrate to a crap dvd

Appreciate all the quick replies as I am now anxious to finalize my project to DVD after spending a long time editing it.

Now on the question of a large HDTV and how things will look, again based purely on my own personal experience and assessments, be prepared for a disappointment.

Ken ¡Vthanks for the warning.
However ,I can live with this once that I now know that there is nothing I could do to further improve this ¡Vthat is, even at the highest quality bitrate setting SD dv is always going to look worse on a HDTV.
And from what you and Devil are saying there would not be a noticeable difference between 7000 and 8000Kbps.
(Ken -out of curiosity is it possible to play your mindv tapes directly on the HDTV with your HD camera and how does that compare to playing the same material on DVD?
Of course it would have to be a HD TAPE camera. Do you think would this give improved quality as you are playing the uncompressed video?Just wondering if there is some long term benefit for holding onto the original minidv tapes in tape or file format )

I was always greatly impressed with the quality when I burned the DVDs consistently with a bitrate of 8000 kbps.
¡K.., if I were you, I would still be burning my SD DVDs at 8000 kbps. I am not convinced though, that you would be seeing any noticeable deterioration in the quality if you used 7500 kbps or even 7000 kbps

Ken, just to clarify, do you mean 8000kb total ¡Vaudio and video combined or do you mean video alone with audio added to this figure?

Devil ¡V You have answered my next question which was what was the recommended
audio bit rate.
I have always used the default audio setting in Videostudio(11) which was LCPM ? with a fixed bitrate.
I then discovered lately that this produces very large audio size as it is almost uncompressed.

Dolby seems to be the way to go as it results in smaller Audio files but then Video-Studio gives several choices of Dolby bitrate in custom mode.
Is this worked out the same way as video, that is, the higher the number the higher the quality.?

So, if I am not too concerned about Audio quality I should choose a lower number which would then allow more room for a higher video bitrate?
I was wondering why a lot of users were choosing 480kb but you are saying that you can go lower if it is not Dolby 5.1.?

For longevity you also need to look at purchasing high quality dvds, no point in burning slowly with a decent bitrate to a crap dvd

Graham,
I normal use only well known brands such as Verbatim etc but are you saying that I should go for higher quality - professional versions ? ¡Vare they easily available?

I have played my HDV mini DV tapes back directly via HDMI on my HDTV and they are superb, but then, that is HDV format. I am sorry to say that I have never used an SD mini DV for playback direct to the HDTV either in my HDV camera or in my SD one. Not sure when I might get the opportunity to try it, as I am going out of town for a few days in a little while.

As for the 8000, that is only the video. I usually use LPCM for projects under 1 hour, and Dolby dual channel stereo if the project is over 1 hour by, say, 10 minutes. So the audio bit rate is added. to the 8000.

I also bow to Devil's knowledge about RW discs -- though can only say that before I burn any of my projects finally to a -R disc, I always test them first by burning an RW disc, and use both + and -RW discs. Going from what he says, I must have been lucky over the years with the six or so stand-alone DVD players I have had since they all played my projects burned with the 8000 + audio bitrates with no observable problem ...

patflan wrote: Graham,
I normal use only well known brands such as Verbatim etc but are you saying that I should go for higher quality - professional versions ? ¡Vare they easily available?

I normally stick to 8k for both video and audio.
I make 100's of dvds every week for all sorts of customers, public and commercial so have lots of variety of players involved.
I have had one dvd back................... I hadn't recorded on it, printed but somehow forgot to burn it

As for the discs, depends on where you are
Taiyo Yuden are excellent discs, but lately I've been trialling Falcon media and am having excellent results for a slightly cheaper price.

Problem is, only time tells you how long yor discs last.

I have had one dvd back................... I hadn't recorded on it, printed but somehow forgot to burn it Embarassed

That's a classic. Must have been early in the morning or late at night.

It would be good to put this maximum bitrate question to bed once and for all!

It's certainly the case that early set top/standalone DVD players struggled with DVD-RW discs, and even DVD+R and DVD-R.

People used to recommend the use of DVD-R discs, which had greater compatibility with early DVD players than DVD+R discs. This should be a moot point these days, since almost all burners will automatically set the "book type" to "DVD Video" when burning a DVD.

Just as all TV programming shouldn't be decided by standards for childrens' viewing, I don't believe the maximum video bitrate should be based on experiences with the first generation of DVD players.

I recall early CD players, especially in cars, had problems playing CD-R and CD-RW discs. Now you wouldn't consider buying a player that couldn't handle those formats.

I have only bought relatively inexpensive DVD players, and some very cheap ones, both in the US and the UK. All of those have had no problem playing DVD+R and DVD-R discs made with VS with a VBR video bitrate of 9500kbps and mpeg or dolby audio.

Paradoxically, it appears that the cheapest players have the greatest compatibility.

I had problems one time with some Sony 8x DVD+R discs, which were resolved by burning at 4x.

After trying out many different brands of disc, I settled on Taiyo Yuden Premium Quality 8x DVD+R which you can find online. They work really well with my Samsung burner. To my mind, it's just not worth using anything else. Buying discs from a store can be something of a lottery anyway. Similar discs from any given manufacturer might use different media codes. If I buy TDK or Imation DVD+R discs, for example, I would only consider those with a "Made in Malaysia" label, since they use the Daxon AZ3 media code which works well in my burners. I would avoid any media with a "Made in China" or "India" label since all the stuff I've tried has given me mediocre results at best. The most important thing is to use media that works well with your particular burner.

I would always suggest that you do your own practical tests. You said that rendering time is not an issue, so perhaps you have time to conduct a few experiments.

I would output a project - could be just a short test project only a few minutes long - to various bitrates. Output to either DVD folders or an ISO file to make it easy to burn copies to different discs.

The first test would be to burn the high bitrate project to a DVD-RW disc. If the target players can handle that, they're almost certain to be able to play the same project burned to DVD+R or DVD-R.

If you're producing discs commercially, like Graham, you would clearly have a much larger group of target DVD players. If you're making up a video for friends and family, it might be feasible to play your test DVD in all the players.

There's one more factor to consider - whether to use CBR or VBR. In your case, with a project that's less than an hour long, you will be able to use the maximum permissible bitrate with CBR, so there's no advantage to be gained by using VBR.

Where VBR comes into it's own is with longer projects, particularly those including lots of static parts, such as slideshow images. Using VBR in such cases can enable you to use a higher maximum video bitrate than you could with CBR - and depending on your test results, it could offer significant improved picture quality.

From the tests, you may find that using a video bitrate of 9500kbps gives no problems. You may also decide that there is no appreciable difference in picture quality for a project using 8000kbps. You might see a drop in quality if you use 6500kbps.

2Dogs wrote:You might see a drop in quality if you use 6500kbps.

I doubt it, as the OP is using DV which is already a compressed format, as a starting point. You may care to have a look at http://www.bnellis.com/mpgcomp/

The most important point is that if you have no idea of what DVD player is likely to be used, you must assume that it is a prehistoric model that will accept only DVD-R at a slow bitrate. Incidentally, as mentioned above, my modern Philips player will occasionally "pixelate" (blocky images) at DVD-R and DVD+R video bitrates >8000 kbit/s for 1 or 2 frames. However, it does not do what my old Grundig did above about 6500 kbit/s -- it stopped playing altogether!

Hi Devil,

that's an interesting link.

My own experience is that I do see an improvement in the picture quality when using higher bitrates, noticeable in the degree of artefacting (if there is such a verb) around titles and so on. Of course it's entirely subjective, in that I'm not using a resolution chart or any other device.

Now everyone varies in the degree of their "pickiness", verging on OCD in my case of course, and so I still believe the OP's best course of action is to do some practical tests to figure out what's best for him.

The trouble with DVD playback issues is that they can be caused by several things, not the least of which might be a "bad burn". Your usual advice to burn at as low a speed as possible may help, but it won't eliminate the possibility of a poor quality burn to media that's not well suited to the DVD burner. You might then presume that the glitch was caused by an excessive bitrate. I'm not for a moment suggesting that such a scenario applies to your own testing, but it might well lead to the build up of anecdotal "evidence" against the use of higher bitrates.

As we know, the Hollywood studios are able to generate exceptional picture quality with very low bitrates - but us normal NLE users have to make do with far less powerful encoders and much noisier source material, so it would be unrealistic to aspire to the average bitrates found on commercial DVD's.

It should of course be easy to check out any difference in picture quality in the output video folders prior to burning to the DVD, as well as any differences in playback of the DVD on the target DVD player/s.

My philosophy is pragmatism, rather than OCD!

I presume, by Katrinaland, that you live somewhere near the Mississippi delta, ie you are in NTSCland, rather than PALland, like myself. That being the case, there are fundamental differences between the DV you use and that which I use.

1. your image size is 720x480 in a frame width of 768 pixels on a 525 line system. Mine is resp. 720x576, 768, 625.

2. you have a 29.98 fps system, 2:1 interlacing, Mine is 25 fps, 2:1

3. your DV colour space is co-sited multiplexed CB/CR 4:1:1, mine is co-sited separate CB and CR 4:2:0

4. most important, both our DVD-compliant MPEG-2 colour spaces are 4:2:0, but have different positions for multiplexed CB/CR samples on the odd and even fields.

The way cheapo encoders, like MC, calculate the DV>DVD colour coding transfer must entail differences even if the luminance signals pass more or less unchanged for the I frames. I suggest that there may be a difference between the systems whereby the conversion from 4:1:1 to 4:2:0 requires more bandwidth in the P and B frames than the simpler 4:2:0 to 4:2:0 conversion, thus robbing something from the luminance signal for a given bitrate. This would mean that DVD-compliant MPEG-2 signals from a DV source for a given bitrate may be of marginally poorer quality in NTSC than in PAL. If this hypothesis is true, then there may be an advantage in encoding NTSC at a slightly higher bitrate than would be necessary in PAL to obtain similar visual quality. I have no way of confirming this idea.

As you rightly point out, Hollywood can do all sorts of micmacs to lower the average bitrate, but they have no limitations because of the characteristics of DVD¡ÓR/RW discs which are not optimal. Plus, they start with uncompressed 3840x2560p 4:4:4 video taken (usually) from film, which is just slightly better than DV or any of the current commercial apologies for HD available just now. However, it doesn't cost us in the 6 figures to encode a 2 h DVD, either!

Your geographical deductions are entirely correct - I am indeed in NTSC land, North West Louisiana to be precise as you can probably tell from my accent....

I must admit I had never considered the significant differences between PAL and NTSC as being contributory factors to a suitable DVD bitrate.

At least the one good thing about the HD standards is that there is no longer such a great difference between the implementation in different countries. Would that we could have a non-lossy consumer HD format with low compression....

2Dogs wrote: At least the one good thing about the HD standards is that there is no longer such a great difference between the implementation in different countries. Would that we could have a non-lossy consumer HD format with low compression....

Don't get me started on HD. What standards? It seems that each manufacturer has his own ideas and nothing is compatible with anything else. This is why I have invested nothing in HD; until there is a universal standard (like DV for SD), I'm sticking with DV. I no longer produce anything but family video and my TV set up-converts all SD to 720p, so what's the point?