Jerky movement on rederet project (and strobe-effect)

[Hessellund]

Hi

I've been going quite mad the last few days... I've just completed my first project in VS11.5 plus, the source material is captured from my Sony HDR HC3 in HDV. - And I'm trying to create a AVCHD DVD and a normal mpeg2 file on my computer.
(I've tried to capture the HDV with VS to get a mpeg file, and HDVspilt to get m2t files).

I've read up on all the upper/lower field problems, but it have not solved my problem: I've tried setting the project properties to 1440x1080, 25fps, UFF, and rendering to 720x756, 25fps, UFF. I still get the motion jitter and the strobe effect... I've all tried all combinations with UFF and LFF on project and render options, with no luck...

I've also tried to use frame based, but no go here either...

I'm out of ideas... Can anyone help to solve the problem, so I can get correct rendered video?

/Michael

[Ken Berry]

Is the jitter separate from the strobe effect, or all part of the one thing? Does it occur throughout the video, or only when there is fast motion or panning of the camera in the shots?

Unfortunately, HDV and AVCHD will almost always have a sort of a shimmer (which might be described as a bit like a strobe effect) if panning is done too quickly and across a wide range of whatever is being filmed. So if this is the case, you need to remember in future filming to pan verrrrrrry slowly, and not through a very wide range of the view. It is only horizontal (left to right, or right to left) panning that causes this, not vertical panning or zooming.

Second, HDV is ALWAYS Upper Field First, and this should not be changed. Certainly changing if from UFF to LFF will not help -- it is likely to make the image worse. with straight lines appearing to have jagged edges etc.

That being said, I assume you know that you can capture from your camera direct to standard definition DV format. Then, of course (though curiously) the field order for the same video becomes Lower Field First, which should be used throughout the project if you use this workflow for the standard definition output. This would presume, however, that you would have to do two lots of captures for the same video, which I realise may not be desirable because of the time involved.

But either way, the high definition shimmer will still be there in fast movement or panning shots...

[Hessellund]

Ken: Thanks for a quick reply!

I'll clarify what I see:

An example: In a scene, we are getting some rope ready to tie down some outdoor furniture. The rope is dangling left and right. When I pause the video (either on my Sony BD player or in Windows Media player), I see the rope in two places, not just motion blur (that's what I call strobe effect ).
Also when people are walking left or right on the scene, its were jerky. - And when paused it looks like two pictures have been bleed on to each other.

The video look perfect when VS DON'T do any rendering, ie. I set the rendering to the same format as the source video (then all I see is motion blur when I pause the video) when rendering to the computer.

Hope this help in understanding what I meen

/Michael

[Ken Berry]

Hmmm... yes, I understand better now what you are seeing. However, I have no idea what might be causing it. When I capture HDV using HDV Split (or for that matter, Video Studio), and play it back, either in Clip or Project mode in Video Studio 10+, 11.5+ or 12, it is very smooth, and only the occasional shimmer that I mentioned above in my earlier videos from my Canon HV20 before I had learned about the problems of panning in HD. When I freeze a frame, either in VS, or when the edited video is played back on my HDTV via PS3, the frozen frame is crystal clear with no double image/strobe effect.

As far as I can recall, no one else has reported your particular problem, and there are other users here with the HC3... I am sorry not to have been of any help, though hopefully if someone else *has* experienced this and found out what might be causing it, they will soon jump in with suggestions!

[Hessellund]

Yes, it a stage fault/result. I've also tried to do a clean install on my wifes PC with the same result.

I've just tried to render a little clip through Windows Movie maker, and that is actually the the same result. Could it be that Vista messes something up??

- I'd really appreciate any comment and suggestions on this from anyone...

/Michael

[skier-hughes]

Vista shouldn't have any bearing on the problem.

Do you have any "normal" sd video to test a capture and output with?

To me it sounds like a setting problem, but without an hdv cam to test I can be of no help and Ken seems to have exhausted the possibilities.

Maybe give Ken the exact method you use to capture, what settings you choose at this point and the project settings in VS, along with the properties of the file you have captured and he may be able to spot something?

[Hessellund]

Thanks for your comment!

I don't know what more I can add, but to sum up my workflow, here goes:

I capture from my HDV sony HC3 cam using HDVsplit, No special setting here except that it splits files when it detects a scene change.
After that I insert video into the time line in VS, making sure that the project setting match the source material setting (mpeg-2, 1440x1080 UFF, 25000 kbps, 100 quality, 25 fps).
Then I render the project using either a lower bitrate or a lower resolution, in this case to a mpg file on my PC.
The result are as described above posts...

I can add that I do also see this effect when I look in the VS preview frame... Here I can see the rope in two places at the same time also (giving the example from the above post).

This could make me believe that VS imports the material wrong, by perhaps deinterlacing it with the wrong field order, or something...

Could anyone perhaps link me some interlaced test material I can try to put through VS?
Preferable UFF


/Michael

[skier-hughes]

Maybe try another programme then?
http://www.yamabe.org/softbody.html#CapDVHS

[Ken Berry]

As I said above, HDV Split works just fine, and I use it all the time, with exactly the same properties as the OP gives. There are no settings, as Hellelund says, as HDV comes in the same vanilla flavour -- you can have any colour as long as it's black!!

So I remain mystified as to what is causing the problem. It is certainly not Vista, as I have only ever operated VS11.5+ and 12 on Vista Ultimate computers, and I repeat, it works fine.

I am intrigued though that Movie Maker gives the same result, which tends to suggest something is wrong on the hardware side. Have you tested the firewire connection and/or cable recently with a DV camera?

[skier-hughes]

Movie maker in vista sometimes works with hdv and sometimes doesn't, so I wouldn't use that as any yardstick

What settings are you using on your cams?

[Hessellund]

I dont think that there so many setting on the cam I can change...

But I'm recording in 1080i, and have DEselected to convert iLink (Firewire) frem HDV to DV.

I think that is all I can change on the settings...

/Michael

[Hessellund]

Btw. I've made a screen shoot of what the issue lookslike. Perhaps it can help:



You can clearly see the effect on the robe, but allso on my hand in the back.

Ken: In answer to yout question. I've not tried my FW cabel on another DV cam. My HDV is the only one I have...

/Michael

[skier-hughes]

Let's recap, as I've re-read your posts again a couple of times.

When you capture with VS it works fine when played on your pc?
If so, this would rule out hardware such as cable faults, plus capture programme.

YOu say it doesn't play well on the pc once vs has rendered it.

If you don't use VS to render and just make your dvd, what is the result, when seen on your pc? When seen on your tv?

[Hessellund]

You got it right

I havnt tied to burn the source to a disc. i dont think that it would make a difference, since the source plays just fine on the PC. Its the rendered is "faulty" on both the PC and on disc, so i assume that the source is ok (besides, I dont think that my BD player can play HDV files)...

Does anyone know a program that can deinterlace a m2t or mpeg stream?

/Michael

[Hessellund]

Hi again

Just for info, I found a nice link where the "ghost"/"strobe" effect are shown and described (among other things):

http://www.doom9.org/ivtc-tut.htm

I've also started to be more and more sure that VS is performing some sort of deinterlace when I import the source material, as ghosting appears even in the preview windows.

/michael