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Posted: **Mon Oct 27, 2008 3:25 am**

Just completed my first project with vs-11. It was a basketball highlight video. 200 clips altogether, of which 150 are video clips, all captured with Sony DCR-DVD 108. File format is NTSC DVD. Video type MPEG-2 upper field first. Attributes 24 bits 720x 480 4:3. Frame rate is 29,970 frames/s. Variable bit rate (Max 3900 kbps), Dolby digital audio, Attributes 32,120,120 sample 48,000 Hz. Bitrate 256 kbps.

No real problems in editing. To burn I did create a videofile first and closed the project file. I selected the highest quality possible settings. Burning took over 2 hours with Pioneer DVR-K17 VF. I selected buffer underrun protection and 2 pass conversion and Create Disk Image.

Viewing my videofile, things look great, but when burned to the DVD things almost look blurry, or look like they have a soft focus. I should add that I do have transitions between all clips, and did apply the DeBlock filter to all also. Before burning multiple copies for players and parents, I would like to know what ideas anyone may have about improving my final product. Thanks for helping.

Posted: **Mon Oct 27, 2008 3:47 am**

Welcome to the forums!

Was there any specific reason that you applied the de-block filter to the whole project? I have often found that various of the filters tend to have the sort of effect you describe. So if you could do without the filter, try that and see if there is an improvement.

I am also a little puzzled about one of the properties you gave -- namely the variable bitrate (max 3900 kbps). That would normally give only average quality, and could be another factor leading to the final fuzziness, particularly when combined with the filter. I have never used a mini DVD camera, so excuse me if this sounds ignorant. But did you change the default setting of the camera from, say, High Quality (HQ or whatever might be specified as the highest setting) to SQ (standard quality) or even LQ (low quality) so you could fit more on the disk?

And for that matter, how long was the overall project?

Posted: **Mon Oct 27, 2008 3:52 am**

I don't necessarily have an answer to your problem, just a few observations.

Variable bit rate (Max 3900 kbps)

That seems kind of low. Anything below 4000 kbps is usually approaching VHS quality. Setting your burn properties to the "highest quality possible" will not do much. Can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

To burn I did create a videofile first and closed the project file.

You are already working with DVD-compliant clips. Creating that video file is just adding another rendering process, and reducing the quality. We recommend creating that video file when you are working with a non-DVD compliant format, so VS doesn't have to convert it to a DVD compliant file during the burn process.

and did apply the DeBlock filter to all also

Why? Were you having quality problems to begin with?

Posted: **Mon Oct 27, 2008 3:18 pm**

I suspect you did use a long play mode on the miniDVD discs to increase recording time, hence the low video bitrate.

The trouble is you can't then improve the picture quality by re-encoding in VS using a higher bitrate.

When working with compressed video, in order to maximise picture quality, the aim should be to minimise re-encoding. To that effect, you should set VS to output the video file with the same properties as your original clips. It can then "smart render" the clips, in effect just copying the files, although there will be some re-encoding at transitions and clip boundaries and so on. You can use the "mpeg optimizer" to do this, and ideally almost all of the video should show as "green", indicating that it wil not be re-encoded.

In earlier versions of VS, smart render could lead to audio out of sync problems amongst other things, but hopefully that's no longer the case. (I'm still using VS 11.5)

Black Lab wrote:You are already working with DVD-compliant clips. Creating that video file is just adding another rendering process, and reducing the quality. We recommend creating that video file when you are working with a non-DVD compliant format, so VS doesn't have to convert it to a DVD compliant file during the burn process.

In fact I believe that it might still make sense to produce a single mpeg2 output file from mpeg2 source footage, so long as it's smart rendered. In the burning phase, the large single mpg2 file will be smart rendered and therefore not re-encoded.

Whether it's actually necessary to create the mpeg2 file is another matter, and it's always been a bit controversial. Some users never had problems in the Create Disc phase with their project on the timeline, and certainly in the past there would almost universally be DV avi clips on the timeline.

Only the OP's experimentation will tell him if it has any benefit in his case - I would suggest a short test project for that purpose.

Posted: **Mon Oct 27, 2008 3:46 pm**

Black Lab wrote:
You are already working with DVD-compliant clips. Creating that video file is just adding another rendering process, and reducing the quality. We recommend creating that video file when you are working with a non-DVD compliant format, so VS doesn't have to convert it to a DVD compliant file during the burn process.

In fact I believe that it might still make sense to produce a single mpeg2 output file from mpeg2 source footage, so long as it's smart rendered. In the burning phase, the large single mpg2 file will be smart rendered and therefore not re-encoded.

Whether it's actually necessary to create the mpeg2 file is another matter, and it's always been a bit controversial. Some users never had problems in the Create Disc phase with their project on the timeline, and certainly in the past there would almost universally be DV avi clips on the timeline.

I exclusively use DV-AVI, so I'll defer to your experience.

I guess it's a matter of how much editing was done...

Posted: **Mon Oct 27, 2008 6:35 pm**

Thanks for your responses. In answers to the questions posed (first by Mr. Berry), I applied the DeBlock filter because when I played back the project many clips would jump from one scene to another, even though playing each clip wasn't a problem. I certainly could take the filter out, if that would help. My project length is 40 minutes and 18 seconds. As a project file is was 1.01 mb, and as a videofile was 2.15 gb. I am sure the video wasn't recorded at the highest quality settings in order to get a complete game on one disk.

Black Lab suggested that I don't need to create a videofile first, since my project is already in mpeg-2 format. I really wasn't having problems to begin with, and the videofile looks great.

2 Dogs suggested that not doing the videofile might cause my audio to be out of sync. I had set VS to output the video file with the same properties as the original clips.

I recognize that I can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, but just want the best looking ear possible.

Posted: **Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:07 pm**

I applied the DeBlock filter because when I played back the project many clips would jump from one scene to another, even though playing each clip wasn't a problem.

Can you explain in more detail? That shouldn't be happening.

2 Dogs suggested that not doing the videofile might cause my audio to be out of sync. I had set VS to output the video file with the same properties as the original clips.

Whoa. That's not what he said at all. What 2Dogs said was that in previous versions, some user's had out of sync problems when rendering with SmartRender turn on.

Posted: **Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:31 pm**

d1coacht wrote:Thanks for your responses. In answers to the questions posed (first by Mr. Berry), I applied the DeBlock filter because when I played back the project many clips would jump from one scene to another, even though playing each clip wasn't a problem.

Not sure what would cause the effect you describe, or what exactly the effect is - but you should not judge the possible final output from playing the project in the preview window - it can be quite misleading.

d1coacht wrote:I certainly could take the filter out, if that would help.

I think you should definitely try that. Instead of experimenting with the whole project, however, it's much easier to sort things out with just a small selection from your project, comprising a few short clips perhaps with a duration of one or two minutes. Test output from that will be much quicker. You can either select a small part of your main project or make a new short test project from it containing just a few clips. Make a test mpeg2 file from the project - Share > Create Video File > MPEG Optimizer and hopefully see just about the whole test project in green, meaning it will be "smart rendered" with no picture quality loss - at which point click "Accept" and save it to a suitable filename and location.

d1coacht wrote:My project length is 40 minutes and 18 seconds. As a project file is was 1.01 mb, and as a videofile was 2.15 gb. I am sure the video wasn't recorded at the highest quality settings in order to get a complete game on one disk.

It's easy to see why you used a lower quality LP mode. Some miniDVD camcorders can only record for 18 minutes on a miniDVD disc at the highest quality setting. The good thing is that your project is short - so it will easily fit on a DVD disc. In fact if you stick to the same video properties, as you should for best picture quality, it will only take up a little over 2.1Gb, leaving you room to make up a few bloopers or other fun chapters. I usually end up making some sort of disco chapter using the video filters and effects and a dubbed on soundtrack... so cheesey!

d1coacht wrote:Black Lab suggested that I don't need to create a videofile first, since my project is already in mpeg-2 format. I really wasn't having problems to begin with, and the videofile looks great.

It's definitely worth seeing if you can output your project directly to DVD folders or even burn to a DVD disc without the intermediate step of producing a single large mpeg2 file from your project. It might well work for you. If it doesn't, however, following the "suggested workflow" and producing the single large mpeg2 file might solve the problem.

d1coacht wrote:2 Dogs suggested that not doing the videofile might cause my audio to be out of sync. I had set VS to output the video file with the same properties as the original clips.

I hope I didn't mislead you into thinking that it would definitely cause the problems I described - I simply wanted to point out that in previous versions of VS, the problems existed. You should be on the look out for them, e.g. audio out of sync, but hopefully you won't get them with X2.

d1coacht wrote:I recognize that I can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, but just want the best looking ear possible.

Absolutely! The encouraging thing is that you say that the video file looks great. If you're happy with the picture quality of your source footage, it should be possible to use VS to make up a DVD with little if any noticeable picture quality degradation compared to the original clips The key thing is to enable the mpeg optimizer - that way you can be sure that the video is not unnecessarily re-encoded, which is usually what degrades the picture quality.

When you get smart render working properly, it will also be very quick, since your source material is already DVD compliant. My old Pentium 2.8 pc could smart render mpeg2 clips at about 17 times real time - i.e. a 17 minute clip would take one minute to smart render. It should only take minutes to output to folders, or to start burning to a disc.

Be aware that any use of filters in your project will slow things right down, however.

I always output to folders first, and burn to a disc separately, just so that I can check that everything is as it should be. In fact my preference is to set VS to output to an ISO file rather than DVD folders. I can then "mount" the ISO file in a "virtual drive" on my pc using a program called CloneCD to check the project by playing it with WinDVD or similar.

Then it's slightly easier to burn the ISO file to a DVD disc than it is burning DVD folders, and I find it's easier to keep track of single ISO files than nested DVD folders containing multiple files.

If you're making several copies of the DVD for distribution to interested parties, my recommendation would be to use Taiyo Yuden Premium Grade DVD discs - which I can only get online here in the US. I find the burn quality and compatibility to be far ahead of any of the discs I can buy in stores, and they can be had for about 35c per disc.

Posted: **Tue Oct 28, 2008 4:08 am**

I have removed filters from project. It won't be too hard to replace them if needed. 2Dogs you said the key in creating the video file is to enable the mpeg optimizer. When I go to Share>create video file the mpeg optimizer is greyed out. That is why I had originally selected "same as project settings". Is there something else I am missing here? Thanks to all for your comments so far.

Posted: **Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:29 pm**

d1coacht wrote:When I go to Share>create video file the mpeg optimizer is greyed out.

The only way I can get VS to grey out the mpeg optimizer is to have avi clips on the timeline, rather than mpeg2 or AVCHD ones.

How are you importing your video? A minDVD camcorder stores video in the DVD format with each clip stored as three files. I believe Sony bundled some software for backing up the video to your pc.

d1coacht wrote:That is why I had originally selected "same as project settings". Is there something else I am missing here?

Selecting "same as project settings" should enable smart render if you set the project settings to match the properties of your clips. You normally get a pop up window when inserting the first clip which prompts you to do so.

Otherwise, when creating a video file in the Share step, click on "Same as First Video Clip".

You'll know that smart render has been enabled because the time to create the video file will be short, several times less than the running time of the video.

The reviews I have read suggest that you should use the HQ mode whenever possible, although that would mean you'd have to use several miniDVD discs, which might not be feasible for continuous shooting.

Posted: **Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:16 pm**

You normally get a pop up window when inserting the first clip which prompts you to do so.

I believe that must be turned on in Preferences - "show message when inserting first clip" or some such wording.

Posted: **Tue Oct 28, 2008 8:04 pm**

So far I have learned a loot which will help me on my next project. Since I don't have any AVI files and inserted the first clip many days ago, it looks like MPEG optimizer is out of the question. When I choose Create File>same as project settings it takes about 2+ hours to create the video file. This time I selected "same as first video clip" and it looks like it is going to be just as slow. As always, I am still open to suggestions.

Posted: **Tue Oct 28, 2008 8:30 pm**

My rendering time is usually 1-1.5 times the length of the project. It also depends on how many transitions and effects are in your project. You said your project is about 40 minutes. If you are still using 2-pass then your 2 hour rendering time would seem reasonable.

I see you are doing a basketball highlight video. I take it from your username you are a coach? For a D-1 college? You might find some recruits here

: http://www.veoh.com/videos/v4523748Z8jk ... blacklabdv

Posted: **Wed Oct 29, 2008 5:35 pm**

Black Lab wrote:My rendering time is usually 1-1.5 times the length of the project.

But you already mentioned earlier that you work exclusively in DV avi - so you would be rendering DV avi to mpeg2.

In the OP's case, he should be able to get smart render to work with his already DVD compatible mpeg2 clips, and rendering time should be much less.

Black Lab wrote:It also depends on how many transitions and effects are in your project.

Of course. But it would be a bit over the top if your transitions amounted to a significant proportion of your project.

Black Lab wrote:You said your project is about 40 minutes. If you are still using 2-pass then your 2 hour rendering time would seem reasonable.

If the OP selected two-pass rendering, then it would surely preclude the possibility of smart render happening.

We never got an answer to the question of how the video was captured to the OP's pc. I wondered if that might have been the cause of VS not being able to smart render it - since it seems to me that smart render is not happening, judging by the reported timescales.

Posted: **Wed Oct 29, 2008 5:44 pm**

2Dogs wrote:
Black Lab wrote:My rendering time is usually 1-1.5 times the length of the project.
But you already mentioned earlier that you work exclusively in DV avi - so you would be rendering DV avi to mpeg2.

In the OP's case, he should be able to get smart render to work with his already DVD compatible mpeg2 clips, and rendering time should be much less.
That is true. I hadn't taken into consideration that he was starting with MPEG-2.

Black Lab wrote:It also depends on how many transitions and effects are in your project.
Of course. But it would be a bit over the top if your transitions amounted to a significant proportion of your project.
Not necessarily transitions, but use of video filters can significantly add to rendering times. That it may be over the top is irrelevant. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Black Lab wrote:You said your project is about 40 minutes. If you are still using 2-pass then your 2 hour rendering time would seem reasonable.
If the OP selected two-pass rendering, then it would surely preclude the possibility of smart render happening.

We never got an answer to the question of how the video was captured to the OP's pc. I wondered if that might have been the cause of VS not being able to smart render it - since it seems to me that smart render is not happening, judging by the reported timescales.

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